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10 Apr 2014, 14:03 (Ref:3390795) | #1 | ||
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.....or Forever Hold Your Peace
Astute readers of this august forum may have discerned some dis-satisfaction with the way historic motor sport is going. Well, Speak Now...
...because the MSA is holding a Forum with the Historic Committee next month! I think it's June 17th and at Silverstone but the pesky Issuu from the MSA is causing me issues. They are also seeking new committee members, so if anyone has a burning desire to change the Historic world now is the time or.... ...Forever Hold Your Peace! |
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17 Jun 2014, 19:26 (Ref:3423181) | #2 | ||
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Well, I went! So did many other racers, preparers and organisers. So many they ran out of chairs. It resulted in 3hrs of intense discussion between the MSA and the floor over many topics of concern, covering all Historic Motor Sport.
John Symes has promised a report on the meeting in the next MSA news, and the representatives have several points to put to the FIA on our behalf..... |
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17 Jun 2014, 20:39 (Ref:3423231) | #3 | ||
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What were some of the key themes raised Mike?
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17 Jun 2014, 23:17 (Ref:3423267) | #4 | ||
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Lack of decent ale at the trackside bars and why can't the breakfasts be as good as they are at Mallory?!!
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I am surpised anything this much fun is firstly still legal and secondly is not taxable |
18 Jun 2014, 07:47 (Ref:3423321) | #5 | |||
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If the assembled throng had felt the MSA could influence such matters I'm sure the questions would have been asked! Most time spent on aspects of the HTP application procedure, not surprisingly, and the recent cost sliding scale introduced. Incidentally, rumours were buzzing a month ago that the FIA were about to 'bow to pressure' and change the life of new HTPs to 10 rather than 5 years. This hasn't happened yet, but due to the fact that a decision has to be made by the 'World Council' who are yet to meet / vote on the matter. The requirement to have an International licence for competing in races outside your own country deemed to be 'championship' events, and the Stress ECG that goes with it, also consumed some time. Interesting that even Masters, an organisation acknowledged to be at the 'high end' of the market, reckon to have lost customers due to the rule. The change is affecting organisers all over Europe, and from what was suggested the FIA are (quite rightly) getting flack from all over. Expect a change eventually, but not quickly..... Safety- ROPS and 'modern safety equipment' (HANS etc) discussed. No changes in legislation on the cards, but as you would expect and hope, constantly under review. Fortunately no knee jerk reactions to the incidents of the previous couple of years. Several other more specific matters also discussed, and no doubt if the MSA feel that are of interest they will be included in the report when published. Apparently it is a while since the last 'open day' discussion on Historics was held, but judging from the turnout and general level of frustration felt by competitors, preparers, organisers and the MSA themselves, it will be a lot less time before the next one- hopefully! |
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18 Jun 2014, 09:03 (Ref:3423339) | #6 | ||
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Mike, thanks for the abridged version.
However, as thrashed out on here so recently, was there no mention of driving standards, or maybe I might have said, the lack of them. That quite rightly has been generating quite a bit spleen busting on these august pages, and I acknowledge that I have been as guilty of that as the next man, yet seems to be missing from your potted resume of the meeting. |
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18 Jun 2014, 09:30 (Ref:3423344) | #7 | ||
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by one person involved with the Mugello 'affair' , but putting that aside there were some useful contributions: One view put forward was that marshalls observing races are now so used to modern racing with associated paint swapping that when they see this happening in historic events they fail to report incidents because they perceive the on track behavioueras 'normal' Apparently steps are being taken to right this. It was also pointed out that clubs ( eg HSCC) are now actively policing driving standards; that many circuits (especially MSV) have camera now; and of course there are the plethora of in car cameras nowadays. Finally, the MSA pointed out that many 'aggrieved' drivers who had been involved in on-track incidents were not sufficiently familiar with judicial procedure (blue book) , and so were potentially losing out, and so encouraged anyone finding themselves in that position to lodge a formal protest (plus ££s deposit) |
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18 Jun 2014, 09:42 (Ref:3423346) | #8 | |||
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Apologies for any repetition with pomracer's post above- overlapped! Last edited by Mike Bell; 18 Jun 2014 at 09:43. Reason: Addition |
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18 Jun 2014, 09:45 (Ref:3423348) | #9 | ||
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What was the Mugello 'affair' referred to by Pomracer?
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18 Jun 2014, 09:50 (Ref:3423351) | #10 | ||
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18 Jun 2014, 15:03 (Ref:3423459) | #11 | |||
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Surely, if driving standards are to be improved, then it has to be done to a uniform standard and that can only be mandated, in the UK, by the MSA. It's all very good for them to say from their ivory towers that it is the responsibility of individual CoCs and organising clubs, but how can you adjudge a driver's standard at one meeting when the CoC at a second meeting can take a totally different point of view. As I wrote on another thread, this matter should be initiated by the FIA and then cascaded down through each country's MSA and so on down the chain of command. Then, as they now like to say, everybody will be singing from the same hymn sheet. And the RAC MSA should be taking this matter to the FIA, and putting pressure on them to start the ball rolling. [/end of sermon] |
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18 Jun 2014, 15:31 (Ref:3423466) | #12 | ||
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Simple answer to that, The MSA BTCC, crack down heavy on that and it will go down the line.
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18 Jun 2014, 16:07 (Ref:3423479) | #13 | |||
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punished with his exclusion of that year's championship. That is just one driver from F1; there are others who transgress and are not adequately penalised. You might be able to temporarily improve driving standards locally starting half way down the food-chain, but, by doing it that way, you will not be able to alter the mindset of your average novice driver who will believe that it is his right to emulate the behaviour of his F1 idols. In my little mind, these matters always have to come down from the top, otherwise it would be like the senior managers of the XYZ Bank being able to get away with things, like fiddling the books, that the most junior employees would be sacked/prosecuted for doing. |
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18 Jun 2014, 17:16 (Ref:3423497) | #14 | ||
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You will find that this Post Chief (old money Observer) has no qualms at all about booking/reporting all contact, side to side as well as front to rear, and plenty of my colleagues are of the same view. However, door handle to door handle racing will produce the occasional touch which in isolation is overlooked but the occasional nerf out the way is not. Your problem arises when you visit circuits that do not see much historic (proper) racing and are predominantly used by "modern" championships/series. That also goes for PC's who only see historic racing occasionally. The remedy? on the marshalling side get your coordinator to speak to the Chief Observer and have driving standards emphasised at the morning briefing/sign-on. The racing side; I would have thought diligent application of a baseball bat once the culprit takes removes their helmet. |
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18 Jun 2014, 19:04 (Ref:3423531) | #15 | |||||
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Quote:
Quote:
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Doing an important job doesn't make you an important person. |
18 Jun 2014, 19:35 (Ref:3423545) | #16 | |||
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Quote:
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18 Jun 2014, 19:45 (Ref:3423549) | #17 | ||
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Buts it's not Club A,B or C.
It's usually race promotors who these days are usually short of entries and are interested in protecting their businesses and obtaining maximum income. You cannot blame them. If only the world could return to Clubs promoting series and BRDC sorting Silverstone Festival. That John Webb has a lot to answer for! |
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20 Jun 2014, 16:20 (Ref:3424280) | #18 | ||
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Well,following today's press releases from Charlie Whiting (on behalf of the FIA concerning driving during Grand Prixes), we now have the tail wagging the dog. Minor, whatever that means or how that will be determined, driving infractions will no longer be investigated by the stewards, and will be treated as "racing incidents".
With that attitude being taken by the FIA over driving standards at the "pinnacle" of "motor-sport", what chance is there of adequately driving up standards in the lower formulae. How will a CoC be able penalise a driver who drives badly when the driver can, legitimately, say to the CoC that it must be OK because he watched Johnny Fastboy doing exactly the same last weekend at the Snooze Grand Prix. According to the FIA, this is, and here I am paraphrasing and using my own interpretation of what was said, they want to spice up the racing. |
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20 Jun 2014, 19:01 (Ref:3424327) | #19 | ||
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I say BTCC because I once ran a racing club and it was necessary to suspend a driver from the club for a month because all the other guys were refusing to race with him. He turned up agressively on my doorstep and started arguing with me and immediately said 'Have you watched the BTCC on TV lately?' and this was over 15 years ago and its got no better since and is still a crash fest which I simply have no interest in. Also its saloons and I would say the majority of Historic racing is done in saloons or closed wheel cars not ex F1's or single seaters. BTW the driver stormed away and never returned as wasnt prepared to accept the suspension, good riddance we said! It was also done to another guy after I left the club but he was drunk and took out half the field in my mates old Camaro! He went on somewhere else (CSCC?) and got banned from there as well! It is really in the clubs hands as they can require membership to race and pulling membership means the offender can no longer compete unless they bow down to a threat of being sued as I mentioned earlier which we never would have done, bring it on!
Last edited by Al Weyman; 20 Jun 2014 at 19:10. |
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20 Jun 2014, 20:24 (Ref:3424362) | #20 | ||
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While it is nice to slag off F1 or BTCC, i just don't see the relevance. We participate in amateur sport, the equivalent of Sunday five aside, but with a more expensive ball. It's different. I don't drive like an F1 driver for three reasons, the car isn't up to it, I'm not up to it, and it is a different.
I don't understand, why is it even compared? |
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20 Jun 2014, 21:53 (Ref:3424386) | #21 | ||
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Because its on TV
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20 Jun 2014, 21:56 (Ref:3424388) | #22 | ||
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No, don't get why that is relevant.
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20 Jun 2014, 22:14 (Ref:3424394) | #23 | ||
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Because to Joe Public and the impressionable they are the "stars", the "idols" the "shining example of the best" and they think that is what racing is about and attempt to emulate them. "That's what I need to do to succeed". So while JP and the young rocket kids do that it "thrills" the mob who want more because it is "entertaining" and they F1, BTCC .... don't have to pay for the damage out of their own pockets. If they had to suffer the consequences of their actions directly ie pay for damage to their car, feel the full weight of proper administration of the regs then "maybe" they would set a better example to JP and the impressionable who "maybe" would eventually appreciate what proper sportsmanlike racing is all about.
I'll now stop dreaming and descend from Fantasy World. |
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21 Jun 2014, 08:57 (Ref:3424506) | #24 | ||
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In response to Ian's (Chigley) post above, I am pleased to note that a member of the Marshal/Safety team can actually see the relevance in what I have been trying to say.
This is no different to the lower echelons of football. I have actually heard 8 year old youngsters playing in a Sunday league arguing with the "ref" because they saw Emile PaidFarTooMuch get away with exactly the same move yesterday on "Football Live" on the box. |
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21 Jun 2014, 21:10 (Ref:3424712) | #25 | ||
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Because it creates a culture of "how racing should be". No one televised incident causes drivers to bash others out of the way but repeated drip, drip, drip gradually allows impressionable people to accept it as the norm.
It's the whole principle behind marketing, embedding your product in the mindset of the prospect. It's why fag advertising was banned, to try and change the nation's attitude to smoking. no single advert caused you to rip open a packet of Bensons, but the use of high profile celebrities and sports make the dreadful things acceptable. Same in motor sport, repeated showing and praising of bash and crash racing or of driving off the circuit gradually makes it commonplace and therefore acceptable. |
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