IMSA DPi Discussion

[Matt]

Good thing the fans aren't the customers for the series!

Series should be pleasing manufactures, not the fans.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by TF110

Toyota and Ferrari were the only teams in their day to do everything in house.

Well. Honda did a stint of building everything in house too. And they even went as far as funding a second team because they upset so many people when they dropped Sato. BMW also did everything in house after the complete takeover of Sauber. At one point, for works teams F1 had Ferrari, Toyota, BMW and Honda. Renault were the exception for a works team, as the engines were built by Mecachrome (but still designed by Renault).

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by TF110

Not sure why people think dpi is some savior to the lmp1 class. The survey conducted by Alex Sinclair showed that people do not have a desire to see a dpi lmp1 class with a spec chassis and stylized bodywork-

516 fans? That's..... that's an absolutely minuscule sample size. Like, in any medical trial I'd ever do, or be a part of, to be considered worthwhile you have to be over 1000 participants, and probably closer to 2500 with multiple-center involvement.

That's an absolute joke of a survey.

[Matt]

especially by a self proclaimed "wec fanboy"

that's a rigged survey. its like just handing it to members of The Collective. you're gonna get an anti-anything imsa does vibe.

[Akrapovic]

500 people is a pathetically small amount of people. But at the same time, you aren't going to get decent numbers in a sportscar survey. Only a tiny percentage of people in any select group do surveys and trials (2500 in a medical trial is a good number, but nothing compared to the millions that will potentially take the medicine). So you start with an already small number, take a small percentage of it and end up with a smaller one.

It's also not rigged. Rigging suggests someone took the results, ignored them and made up their own. It's swayed in that most of the people involved already have strong opinions on it. But again, this is what happens when you poll people about their own hobbys - they already have set opinions on it, so you won't get unbiased views (it's also why medical trials don't tend to allow medical professionals, and are blind trials). An election isn't rigged, but it is swayed by those with strong opinions on it. That's how these things work. (It's also why opinion polls online have been inaccurate - polling set groups). It's also wrong to say that that's just proof that the polled people don't like IMSA - it also says 67% of the people polled do watch IMSA. I do too, and I love it - but I also don't want DPi to be the top class at Le Mans.

No you can't take that survey as proof of anything. Too small a sample, with an opinionated group being polled. But it is better than no guidance at all.

If P1 dies, P1 is dead. There won't be a return.

Of course it will. It won't be replaced overnight, but you'll end up with a replacement in the future. They said the same with GT1. "Oh we'll miss those big monsters". They're back - they're just called GTE now. We're back to monster, borderline prototype GT cars.

If P1 hybrids die, then you'll have the ACO suddenly take a big interest in private cars which they've neglected, and you'll find them asking people like ORECA (ha..) and Ligier to make customer P1 chassis, and then suddenly you'll have a P1 class that's cheaper, that brings manufacturers back in. That's the circle of motorsport, and it'll happen again. P1 hybrids will either flourish through proper management (lol...) or they'll die, the replacement P1 will be cheaper, and teams will come back in various forms. Same as every form of racing for decades.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

500 people is a pathetically small amount of people. But at the same time, you aren't going to get decent numbers in a sportscar survey. Only a tiny percentage of people in any select group do surveys and trials (2500 in a medical trial is a good number, but nothing compared to the millions that will potentially take the medicine). So you start with an already small number, take a small percentage of it and end up with a smaller one.

Eh. No. It's more like, hey, I've got this idea, lets trial it and see if it works... actual pharmaceuticals are worked on for years before they ever touch a human, with hundreds of thousands of different changes. This is a pathetic survey that clearly was poorly designed, and distributed. Two countries held 55.1% of the vote, and even at that, it still wasn't even 200 people in those two countries, the remainder all had 25 or fewer votes...

I'm sorry, but, this just doesn't hold any water.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

Eh. No. It's more like, hey, I've got this idea, lets trial it and see if it works... actual pharmaceuticals are worked on for years before they ever touch a human, with hundreds of thousands of different changes. This is a pathetic survey that clearly was poorly designed, and distributed. Two countries held 55.1% of the vote, and even at that, it still wasn't even 200 people in those two countries, the remainder all had 25 or fewer votes...

I'm sorry, but, this just doesn't hold any water.

I actually don't think comparing it to medical trials holds any water. One is a strictly controlled survey where people should be background checked, done with blind placebos, etc etc. They're also government regulated, meaning they can be rolled out on a national or even international scale. They provide extremely detailed and heavily analysed data that will go towards the release of a product.

The other is asking fans of a series what they think of it. They already have fully formed opinions. And it had no formal backing what-so-ever, so it's like you or me forming a survey. It doesn't make the survey pathetic or poorly designed. It makes it...shock horror...an internet survey. They provide a little information on the series. Not something to base your entire product on.

Two completely different things on very different scales, for different purposes. F1 and NASCAR couldn't pull off these surveys correctly, so lets not all rag on the work of a hardcore fan who was doing his best to help gather a bit of info and opinion on the sport.

[chernaudi]

Well, I do think that racing series should listen to fans to some degree, because that's where they get a significant chunk of their operating revenue from. If you think that they get their money just from manufacturers' advertising and investment and teams' entry fees, you're sadly mistaken. A lot of it also comes from ticket sales and TV ratings revenue.

Why was such a big song and dance made of NASCAR's $800+ million dollar TV deal with Fox and NBC a couple of years ago, even with stagnant ratings and declining attendance?

By your reasoning Matt, the ACO are in deep crap, because the biggest thing that I know will hurt the ACO with the Audi Sport pull out isn't that Audi won't have their cars and drivers there, but it's fan/brand activation and investment in advertising. Audi did that a lot better than other factory teams have done. And I think that's what will actually hurt the ACO most, and we probably won't see that until LM in June when we won't see the Audi Sport/Audi e-tron quattro/Audi Sport Performance Cars advertising signs and banners around the tracks.

Even when Porsche came back, they didn't heavily advertise like Audi did. Toyota haven't done such advertising and brand activation. Aston Martin, Ferrari? Only one who so far has come closest to matching what Audi did has been Ford, and even then they're quite a bit behind what Audi were even doing in their program's dying days.

Point is, though, if the ACO are crapping a brick about the lack of revenue from Audi/Audi Sport advertising and promotion, they need to make up that shortfall somewhere.

And based on my time on this board, it's pretty damn clear that the ACO have a "to hell with the fans' opinions" complex every bit as much as anyone else. If they did listen to the fans, we'd have open chassis in LMP2, Gibson wouldn't be the sole engine supplier, LMP1 wouldn't be so expensive and private teams could in theory truly pick up the pieces should the factory teams falter, and so on, and so on.

Of course, the problem with listening to fans is that they're not of one mind. Like with NASCAR and F1, I have a very hard time telling exactly what the fans truly want for the series. Granted, post Audi Sport withdraw and how things have been done with DPI, if you do that same survey again, I'd bet that the rating for it would be higher than 2.6 out of 10. By how much, I don't know.

But I don't think that present LMP1 is sustainable because it's too expensive and pushes a particular technological agenda, and DPI isn't a cure all, because though it's a good starting base, it's not LMP1 as it should be, and it too would need a lot of changes IMO before the finished product.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Of course it will. It won't be replaced overnight, but you'll end up with a replacement in the future. They said the same with GT1. "Oh we'll miss those big monsters". They're back - they're just called GTE now. We're back to monster, borderline prototype GT cars.

GT3 as well. Drop the BoP in both and SOME of those cars would be bumping up against old-gen LMP2 lap times.

Frankly, we're in the best possible position to be ready for a prototype collapse. There are not less than three classes running in the world with great manufacturer support that could step up in the place of LMP: GTE, GT3, and Class One. The latter in particular should be looked at to replace prototypes if things really go down the drain(it could even still be used to run some high-tech engines if the ACO REALLY wanted to go that route), and don't think for a moment that most GTE and GT3 manufacturers wouldn't be VERY happy to be building unrestricted versions of their GTE and GT3 cars - particularly GT3 where there'd still be a massive customer market for the restricted versions to help offset development costs.

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

GT3 as well. Drop the BoP in both and SOME of those cars would be bumping up against old-gen LMP2 lap times.

Frankly, we're in the best possible position to be ready for a prototype collapse. There are not less than three classes running in the world with great manufacturer support that could step up in the place of LMP: GTE, GT3, and Class One. The latter in particular should be looked at to replace prototypes if things really go down the drain.

So, do we actually have a class one regulation now? I thought we didn't, yet.

Besides, speaking about going down the drain, if you want to accelerate endurance racing going down, sure, add some DTM cars. Yuck.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by TF110

Not sure why people think dpi is some savior to the lmp1 class. The survey conducted by Alex Sinclair showed that people do not have a desire to see a dpi lmp1 class with a spec chassis and stylized bodywork-

It all depends on the question and how you word it.

For one thing, LMP1-L would Not have a spec chassis ... it would Allow modified P2 cars. Oreca could build its R1, or any other manufacturer could build a P1-L chassis (which is essentially a P2 chassis with freedom to develop and freedom to use any engine.)

This means Dallara could keep building DPis, P2s, and even modify its P2 chassis for a customer who wanted a P1-H ... and Gibson could build a P1-L chassis if it wanted.

The question isn't "Should P1-L be a spec-chassis class?" (which Of Course no one wants) but "Could DPis be allowed into P1-L?" which is an Entirely different question.

If P1-H dies, P1-L becomes the default top class ... and as for why it should exist at all ...

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

Without a reason to have a P1 class, P1 will never be important again. P2 just becomes the defacto top class, and everyone is suddenly very happy..

Fans have made it Amply clear that they do not want a spec top class ... ask Grand Am/Rolex ... oh, you can’t because they went broke and had to change to having a more open formula.

Nobody wants P2 as a top class ... and as the ample P1 subscription Before P1-H shows, Lots of people want to build P1-L cars. Look at Petit or Sebring from 2011 or 2012 .. .or Le Mans from those years. Oreca, Oak, Pescarolo, Peugeot, Audi, HPD, Lola ....

If P1-L were the top class, so that cars and teams would be competing for overall wins, I think you would see the same kind of entry---add Ginetta and ByKolles, SMP .... plus the DPis .... We could easily see half-a-dozen different teams or more offering P1-L/DPi cars.

Originally Posted by Matt

Good thing the fans aren't the customers for the series! Series should be pleasing manufactures, not the fans.

Good thing you aren’t in charge. Here’s how the racing business works ... No fans, no business.

As for whether Toyota will stick around if it wins Le Mans ... or doesn’t ... We all have opinions. I doubt any of us know. I doubt the board of directors at Toyota have made that decision already. Interesting discussion, no possible resolution except Wait and See.

Originally Posted by TF110

I think the ACO will drop the hybrid requirements but still keep them as an option. Like the Peugeot story, maybe see them making a lightweight class. Running a spec chassis is boring. No one wants to see p2's winning Le Mans. It should be the best machines not some upgraded gentleman's car.

This is actually what I think makes the most sense-—so of course ACO will never accept it.

P1-H should be scaled back and balanced with P1-L, factories should be allowed in P1-L, and DPis should be allowed in P1-L. We could see a dozen P1s on the grid in that case.

Right now the sole reason for FIA to keep P1-H as it is, is to make huge bucks from the manufacturers. It is not about racing, it is about paying the bills ... FIA won’t let factories in P1-L because it wants to make big bucks, and factories would definitely take the cheaper option if they could still win overall.

At some point FIA might need to rethink that financial strategy ... if either Porsche or Toyota gets fed up , the whole show could collapse. However, having a bunch of manufacturers but charging them less, is how it used to be and it worked.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Ephaeton

So, do we actually have a class one regulation now? I thought we didn't, yet.

Yes, one side jsut doesn't want to implement part of it yet.

Besides, speaking about going down the drain, if you want to accelerate endurance racing going down, sure, add some DTM cars. Yuck.

There are 6 manufacturers running Class One type cars worldwide. If each one sent one car(not a big ask), you'd have one more car than LMP1 has this year, and there's a not insignificant chance that they'd all be quite keen on getting more customers for those things.

Class One is, honestly, better suited for multi-class racing like in Super GT than single-class like in DTM.

[TF110]

It might be a small number in the survey, but any survey is going to be small unless it's done by the governing body on a mandatory level. It's not, so it's only willing participants that respond. That doesn't mean it's results are null. Of all the questions, replacing lmp1 with a dpi solution was the lowest supported idea. That means you'd have to find a lot more people that want dpi in a larger survey to combat those results. I find that unlikely. People want to see the top class have top cars, not rebadged ones based on a spec chassis. Nothing spec should be in the top class. Even GT500 cars are run on a spec tub. That's the bad thing about the new Super GT rules. Innovation shouldn't be starved because costs. If you want to compete, you need to have the funds. But the rule makers are helping smaller teams by giving them a lower weight car and more open aero rules.

[NaBUru38]

Fans will always prefer 1000 hp hybrid monsters to 600 hp spec cars.

The point is that LMP1 is in danger, and sooner or later there will have to be some kind of replacement.

IMSA saw this and decided to promote DP / LMP2 as the main class. Today they have a solid dozen cars in the class.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Fans will always prefer 1000 hp hybrid monsters to 600 hp spec cars. The point is that LMP1 is in danger, and sooner or later there will have to be some kind of replacement. IMSA saw this and decided to promote DP / LMP2 as the main class. Today they have a solid dozen cars in the class.

I need to reiterate, P1 should not be spec cars ... and not just spec chassis.

Seriously though, how different was the R1's chassis from Oreca's P2 chassis?

As I recall, P1 and P2 chassis have the same dimensions, the same safety cells ... the only difference is that P1 allows development which P2 prohibits ...

All I am suggesting is including provisions for DPis to be Part of the P1 equation.

As for badging ... I already mentioned the Ford Mustang and Ford Probe GTPs, the Cadillac Northstar LMP, the Corvette GTP .... Audi and Ferrari running chassis built by Dallara ... and No One Cared.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Fans will always prefer 1000 hp hybrid monsters to 600 hp spec cars.

The point is that LMP1 is in danger, and sooner or later there will have to be some kind of replacement.

IMSA saw this and decided to promote DP / LMP2 as the main class. Today they have a solid dozen cars in the class.

And the wec has 10 p2's, and the elms has even more. That doesn't mean anything really. Quantity =/= quality. Lmp1 is not in danger any more than it was these past few years. Just because Audi dropped out doesn't mean the class drops with it. Why would they need a replacement when they have 2 new teams at least joining next year? So this year there is 5 cars, next year there will be at least 7. Was there a call for lmp1 to be dropped or was it in danger when it was only 1 part-time Toyota and 2 Audi's in the factory class?

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by TF110

Just because Audi dropped out doesn't mean the class drops with it.

Well.. AFAIUI for FIA to bless the class with "championship" status, they actually need 3+ manufacturers.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Fans will always prefer 1000 hp hybrid monsters to 600 hp spec cars.

If the hybrid system fails, and above whatever the max kph is, the current P1 cars are only like 500hp cars.

Originally Posted by TF110

And the wec has 10 p2's, and the elms has even more. That doesn't mean anything really. Quantity =/= quality. Lmp1 is not in danger any more than it was these past few years. Just because Audi dropped out doesn't mean the class drops with it. Why would they need a replacement when they have 2 new teams at least joining next year? So this year there is 5 cars, next year there will be at least 7. Was there a call for lmp1 to be dropped or was it in danger when it was only 1 part-time Toyota and 2 Audi's in the factory class?

The WEC P2 is currently LMPC but with closed top cars. All Oreca's. I wouldn't exactly call that "strong."

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Matt

The WEC P2 is currently LMPC but with closed top cars. All Oreca's. I wouldn't exactly call that "strong."

The WEC is at a real risk of dying... It's expensive, and the car counts aren't exactly... bounding.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Ephaeton

Well.. AFAIUI for FIA to bless the class with "championship" status, they actually need 3+ manufacturers.

Then how did it get FIA world championship status if only Audi and Toyota were entered? It's two, not three.

Originally Posted by Matt

The WEC P2 is currently LMPC but with closed top cars. All Oreca's. I wouldn't exactly call that "strong."

I didn't say it was "strong". I just said there's 10 entries. And LMPC is a class made and limited to one car, wec P2 is only subscribed by one type of car, not limited to it. You know the difference and it makes your argument look silly.

[Akrapovic]

2016 isn't looking like a classic year, not by a long shot. But for all the complaining IMSA fans do about anyone who isn't pro IMSA, we're hearing a lot of nonsense about LMP2 dying and the whole series circling the drain, and anything that is spec is the same as LMPC. The amount of negativity being incorrectly and inaccurately ladelled on at any opportunity is a bit ironic given the complaints. Any chance of people being sensible?

LMP2 is identical to LMPC. Except for the 10 year old cars, 10 year old engines, moronic drivers, cheap crap driver aids and a car count of 3.

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by TF110

Then how did it get FIA world championship status if only Audi and Toyota were entered? It's two, not three.

sparing the "", we now (since Porsche joined in 2014, hint hint) have a LMP1 only championship, whereas before (2012, 2013) the P2 pilots were eligible for the championship as well. I'm not sure what the WEC's excuse is for keeping the championship status in 2017 for P1-H-only.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by TF110

Then how did it get FIA world championship status if only Audi and Toyota were entered? It's two, not three.

I didn't say it was "strong". I just said there's 10 entries. And LMPC is a class made and limited to one car, wec P2 is only subscribed by one type of car, not limited to it. You know the difference and it makes your argument look silly.

Hence why I said, "Currently."

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by TF110

Then how did it get FIA world championship status if only Audi and Toyota were entered? It's two, not three.

Please note that currently (2017 International Sporting Code by FIA, article 2.4, section 2.4.1.c) :

International Championships which bear the FIA name
are the property of the FIA and may only bear a title that
includes the word “World” (or any word with a similar
meaning to or derived from “World” in any language) if their
applicable regulations comply at least with the requirements
of Article 2.4.3 of the Code and with the additional
requirement that they involve the participation, on average
over the entire season, of a least four automobile makes.

This is a requirement that is clearly not fulfilled for this year's WEC P1 championship; wasn't in 2014-2016 either (but then again, "on average over the entire season" Nissan might have helped in 2015, or some other letter of intent in 2014 or 16). Also note that the 2013/14 version of the same code includes the very same numeric requirement for manufacturer involvement)

[TF110]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

The WEC is at a real risk of dying... It's expensive, and the car counts aren't exactly... bounding.

So imsa is better off? They use GT3 cars to add to their grid numbers, lmpc has it's last year, dpi is not off to a (even) good start, p2 cars are mostly European entries only doing 4 races the whole season. If you took away GTD and lmpc, their grid would be smaller than the wec. I guess they're at risk of dying as well?

Originally Posted by Ephaeton

Please note that currently (2017 International Sporting Code by FIA, article 2.4, section 2.4.1.c) :


This is a requirement that is clearly not fulfilled for this year's WEC P1 championship; wasn't in 2014-2016 either (but then again, "on average over the entire season" Nissan might have helped in 2015, or some other letter of intent in 2014 or 16). Also note that the 2013/14 version of the same code includes the very same numeric requirement for manufacturer involvement)

Toyota, Porsche, Ferrari, Aston Martin, Ford. That's 5. Unless it says "all in lmp1" then it's allowed to have just those two (Porsche and Toyota).