[BTCC] Donington Park rounds 4,5 & 6 2017

[skells22]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

I sometimes wonder if they should split up the starting grid

say the first 1-20 normal start and the ones who qualified in 21 to 32 start about 2 seconds later to try avoid accidents a bit more

one issue with that, what if the car from the top 20 go off in lap one at turn one bring out the yellow flags

[mattcanary]

Went to Donington for the first time yesterday.

The track is great. The section through Hollywood, the old hairpin and the Schwantz Hairpin especially. Spectacular to watch the Boring Cars through this section. Really good facilities for spectators too.
Croft is now the only BTCC track I have never watched racing at. Although I've not been to Thruxton and Silverstone since the nineties, (and Silverstone was for a Grand Prix, rather than touring cars).

An entertaining day on Saturday. A couple of excellent drives by Jamie Caroline in F4, (a stunning first lap in the part-reverse second grid), and Dan Cammish in the Porsches.

Yesterday was chaotic. So many red flags and shortened races.
Feel disappointed for Gordon Shedden who drove excellently all day, and didn;t deserve that exclusion in the last race. His save on the opening lap of the aborted race was unbelievable.
Tom Ingram drove really well too and makes the right decisions in races far more often than he used to. Adam Morgan and Colin Turkington drove really well too.
Motorbase were really disappointing. They just don;t seem to have much pace.

Where was Jason Plato? He was nowhere compared to Ash Sutton. Ash apparently loves Donington, but even so.

Appalling from the course commentators on not informing the crowd about Billy Monger. Shameful in fact - they just kept bleating on about what a wonderful day it is at Donington, etc for about two hours whilst he was being treated out on the track. Wouldn;t have had a clue what was going on if I had been watching the races along the straight.

Weather was really cold all weekend - a particularly biting cold wind on Saturday afternoon. I really do think the BTCC season should start later in the season and they should get rid of the summer break. I know you can get torrential rain in the middle of summer, but at the least the rain then stands a chance of drying out more quickly. Additionally, many of the numerous shunts during the weekend were probably caused by people struggling to get warmth into the tyres on such a cold track.

Track racing should be a summer sport. Meetings used to be held in July, so why not now? Shorten the season by holding races only in May- September.

[bauxxitt]

hey, if any of you got the replays, could you send it to me? thank you

[Bramzel]

It'll appear here at some point, they seem to be a bit slower this year though: http://www.itv.com/btcc/races

[Sodemo]

I was confused at the track why Neal was unable to take the race restart in Race 3

[thlbtcc]

Really enjoyed a day out at Donington yesterday.

I can tell you that at times it was absolutely freezing. Maybe track temp is a factor.

Seeing the "midfield" is ace live. When I say 'mid', I mean 8th-32nd. In previous years, even last season, there were always a few stragglers and packs at the rear. Not anymore, the field is in the whole quicker and that's enjoyable live.

Regarding angry driver quotes. There's a lot of money going the way of Motorbase this season and Cook is outperforming them handily. Frustrating.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

I sometimes wonder if they should split up the starting grid

say the first 1-20 normal start and the ones who qualified in 21 to 32 start about 2 seconds later to try avoid accidents a bit more

Having watched a lot of motor racing in the US I am a big believer in rolling starts. Yes, problems do occur still but it eliminates stalled cars on a grid being hit plus removes that period of sitting where tyres cool whilst the back of the grid forms up.

This likely could have prevented the Brands collisions between Neal and Turkington plus Simpson and Plato. Not to mention Hunter Abbots truly horrific crash at Snetterton last summer.

[STAR Driver]

Originally Posted by mattcanary

Weather was really cold all weekend - a particularly biting cold wind on Saturday afternoon. I really do think the BTCC season should start later in the season and they should get rid of the summer break. I know you can get torrential rain in the middle of summer, but at the least the rain then stands a chance of drying out more quickly. Additionally, many of the numerous shunts during the weekend were probably caused by people struggling to get warmth into the tyres on such a cold track.

Track racing should be a summer sport. Meetings used to be held in July, so why not now? Shorten the season by holding races only in May- September.

Unlikely to happen for one reason - TV. The current calendar basically enables the all-day, free-to-air live coverage on ITV4; come the summer, they have a lot of other sporting events they cover, hence the summer break.

The series is not likely to give up that kind of exposure, and I can't think of another free-to-air channel that would be willing to offer a similar kind of platform.

[mattcanary]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Having watched a lot of motor racing in the US I am a big believer in rolling starts. Yes, problems do occur still but it eliminates stalled cars on a grid being hit plus removes that period of sitting where tyres cool whilst the back of the grid forms up.

This likely could have prevented the Brands collisions between Neal and Turkington plus Simpson and Plato. Not to mention Hunter Abbots truly horrific crash at Snetterton last summer.

Strongly disagree. A real aspect of a really top racer is being able to get the car off the line well and be able to position the car well in the first few corners

[Sodemo]

Why was Matt Neal not allowed to take the restart after the race 3 red flag? I've just watched the coverage back and the race was annulled. So why wasn't he allowed to take the start? Bizarre.

[S griffin]

Well done for Moffat. Didn't see that coming, even though he's got the talent, but I didn't expect him to do it today, especially after being nowhere at Brands so well done. Not sure if he's gonna be a contender more often or if this is an outlier

Sutton proved the pole wasn't purely down to overboosting, with an excellent recovery, to get a third and a fourth in R2 and R3. He certainly seems to be the only one to get the Scooby working. I mean, where was Jason? Was he even in the race at all?

Cook seems to be the only one to get the Ford working. Motorbase have been underperforming so far, even with Mat Jackson. I hope Cook's form continues and he gets that overdue first win this season. Another who I want to know what happened to is AJ, he was nowhere the performance he had at Brands

Goff was my dark horse for pole, and even though that didn't happen, it was nice to see both Eurotech cars up there. Goff certainly seems to be back to his best with FWD and Smith seems to be benefiting from having a race winning team mate

Seems the organisers are trying to put driver discipline back into obeying yellow flags which is good, as we had a lack of SCs, which can disrupt the flow of a race all too often. What a shame the only SC was pointless, seen as Jackson got going. But R3 for sure should have started behind the SC at the very least. And how was Coates allowed to keep his win in the Clio Cup, yet Neal wasn't allowed to even start. Bizarre

Finally glad both drivers were relatively alright, after that nasty crash in F4

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Why was Matt Neal not allowed to take the restart after the race 3 red flag? I've just watched the coverage back and the race was annulled. So why wasn't he allowed to take the start? Bizarre.

Because the rule as adopted for BTCC races is that a contestant cannot receive mechanical assistance to regain the track after leaving it. This was, I believe, a clarification brought about after the incident some years ago when Hamilton was actually craned up out of the kitty-litter, and was allowed to continue racing because he had kept the engine running.

However, in these circumstances, I personally cannot see a huge amount of difference between an army of marshals pushing a car out of the sand-trap, and a tractor with one marshal driving it pulling the car out. To me, the concept of a competitor not being allowed to receive outside assistance should mean both not being pushed by humans and not being pulled by a machine.

The authority's "get-out" clause is that in theory a car can resume to compete when the marshals move it when they consider it to be a danger to other competitors. I just cannot see the real difference between the two methods, especially when the race has been neutralised on the opening lap and every other competitor is allowed to take up his/her original grid place.

I do think that under the circumstances, when one considers whether the race should have been started at all or at least under a safety car, that the race director couldn't have used a bit of discretion/initiative and allowed Neal to re-take his grid slot.

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by luckn002

Something else to pick up on - seemed to be a lot of safety car periods go amiss. Look at the end of R2, Simpsons car stranded in the middle of the road. Very dangerous, especially after Monger's horrific crash.

They never deploy a safety car if an incident happens after the start of the final lap, simply because there's no way that the safety car could pick up the leader.

Local yellow flags was an entirely appropriate way to deal with that incident.

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Because the rule as adopted for BTCC races is that a contestant cannot receive mechanical assistance to regain the track after leaving it. This was, I believe, a clarification brought about after the incident some years ago when Hamilton was actually craned up out of the kitty-litter, and was allowed to continue racing because he had kept the engine running.

However, in these circumstances, I personally cannot see a huge amount of difference between an army of marshals pushing a car out of the sand-trap, and a tractor with one marshal driving it pulling the car out. To me, the concept of a competitor not being allowed to receive outside assistance should mean both not being pushed by humans and not being pulled by a machine.

The authority's "get-out" clause is that in theory a car can resume to compete when the marshals move it when they consider it to be a danger to other competitors. I just cannot see the real difference between the two methods, especially when the race has been neutralised on the opening lap and every other competitor is allowed to take up his/her original grid place.

I do think that under the circumstances, when one considers whether the race should have been started at all or at least under a safety car, that the race director couldn't have used a bit of discretion/initiative and allowed Neal to re-take his grid slot.

I believe it's more down to trying to keep the flow of a race.
If a car can quickly be pushed back onto the track by marshals without bringing out the safety car, that is preferable to having to deploy a safety car and then a recovery vehicle (because not every circuit has live snatch, and even at the ones that do, it isn't on every corner).

Of course if a race is red flagged the race is going to be disrupted anyway.

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by mattcanary

Appalling from the course commentators on not informing the crowd about Billy Monger. Shameful in fact - they just kept bleating on about what a wonderful day it is at Donington, etc for about two hours whilst he was being treated out on the track. Wouldn;t have had a clue what was going on if I had been watching the races along the straight.

What would you like them to do? Speculate?
The official update was released at 3.30pm. Until then there was nothing for them to say on the matter.

[porsche962fan]

looks like Matt and Steve Neal DO have a point and this race official violated a clear rule

“The MSA bluebook regulation 5.4.1 says that if a race leader does no more than two laps, the race is declared a no contest, so every car can retake its grid position. But they’re saying the session had started, calling the race a session, and that I received mechanical assistance so I’m not allowed to take part in that session; but the session hasn’t happened, the bluebook clearly says it’s a ‘no contest’

http://www.touringcartimes.com/2017/...the-last-race/

[Sodemo]

I went to Donington with my girlfriend and it was her first experience of attending a motor race. It was a shame that it poured down for race 3. I did ask her if she wanted to stay or go as she looked miserable as our umbrella had died, thankfully she is a hardy soul and manned up and wanted to stay until the end. We hung around the Craners for most of the day, and went up on that big new hill near the inside of McLeans for a bit too.

The good news was, she enjoyed it and agreed to go again.

Lots of incidents and puzzling lack of safety cars at times when cars were laid stricken trackside. I was amazed they started race 3 when it was so unbelieveably wet, I knew it would be carnage and it was.

[mattsmith]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

looks like Matt and Steve Neal DO have a point and this race official violated a clear rule





http://www.touringcartimes.com/2017/...the-last-race/

They're wrong. Championship regulations take precedent.

http://www.btcc.net/wp-content/uploa...egulations.pdf

3.8.1.b
Any car unable to return to the Pits under its own power and/or who has caused a stoppage to a practice or qualifying session or Race, may not be permitted to take further part in that session or Race.

[thetool]

Don't bother arguing with him.

[VIVA GT]

It looks like a further rule clarification (which will actually be another complication) is required, as there is a lot of conflicting stories here.
My take on it was that as the stoppage happened on the first lap, the race that had actually 'started' in reality hadn't because the race re-started right from the very beginning. So, in theory, what had happened with Matt Neal didn't really matter because that lap didn't count.
As far as whether it was right to start the race 'in those conditions' or not, I could see nothing wrong with starting the race. I've been watching a lot of motorsport events (especially saloon/Touring car types) for 40 or so years and have seen many races run in far worse conditions than happened at Donington yesterday, without any problems*. The drivers all started the race on wet tyres, and had two sighting laps in order to experience the conditions so that they could decide where & how hard they could push. I think it was poor driving that caused the incidents because some decided to drive quicker/harder than was suitable for the current track conditions.
From past experience I don't expect Steve & Matt Neal to give upon this one...
*Oh. and my comments above aren't based on what I saw on TV as I was lucky enough to have been there in person yesterday as a guest of one of the teams (not Honda I might add) and walked from almost the back of the grid back down the pit lane before the race was started initially. Admittedly I got wet doing so, but have certainly experienced worse than that...

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by mattsmith

They're wrong. Championship regulations take precedent.

http://www.btcc.net/wp-content/uploa...egulations.pdf

3.8.1.b
Any car unable to return to the Pits under its own power and/or who has caused a stoppage to a practice or qualifying session or Race, may not be permitted to take further part in that session or Race.

My own perspective, disregarding anything that the Neals may have said, is that that regulation cannot have been the basis for the exclusion. My reasoning is that Neal was not the only car that had left the circuit and was in a dangerous position, and that at least one other car required outside assistance to regain the track. And both cars then proceeded around the circuit under their own power.

I repeat, I think that the race director was not even-handed on his treatment of all the competitors, and that he/she should have used a little common-sense and allowed Neal to take up his place on the grid as the race had not been officially "started" because it had been red flagged prior to the completion of the 1st lap.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

My own perspective, disregarding anything that the Neals may have said, is that that regulation cannot have been the basis for the exclusion. My reasoning is that Neal was not the only car that had left the circuit and was in a dangerous position, and that at least one other car required outside assistance to regain the track. And both cars then proceeded around the circuit under their own power.

I repeat, I think that the race director was not even-handed on his treatment of all the competitors, and that he/she should have used a little common-sense and allowed Neal to take up his place on the grid as the race had not been officially "started" because it had been red flagged prior to the completion of the 1st lap.

That, Mike, is also what I was trying to say above!

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

That, Mike, is also what I was trying to say above!

Well, why didn't you then? Do expect your elders to always do all the heavy lifting, whilst you contemplate your navel and pick the belly fluff out of it?

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Well, why didn't you then? Do expect your elders to always do all the heavy lifting, whilst you contemplate your navel and pick the belly fluff out of it?

Basically. yes! Thanks Uncle Mike!

[Sodemo]

Any ideas why Plato was so at sea? He kinda vanished the whole weekend.