[BTCC] Rounds 7, 8, 9 & Test Day at Thruxton, 2017

[The SpeCTator]

Interesting that Plato is the mouth on the mike when he is the hero, but disappears when the going gets tough!
And we all know why!

[BLiTZ]

Something definitely fishy going on. The lack of testing, Plato's uncharacteristic absence from any media coverage, whether or not we'll ever hear the whole truth remains to be seen, but the way things are shaping up I feel we won't be seeing six cars from Warren's stable next year and even then 2-4 could be questionable if the numbers are to be believed.

You can't help thinking that this whole mess is Plato's doing and stems back a few seasons. I get the impression 888's issues started towards the end of Plato's third season in the MG and when he took his bat and ball and Faux home that spelt the end for them. What he didn't bank on when he started moving things into place at BMR was that the mess he'd left behind would suddenly be working out of the same workshop and siphoning off vital resources!

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

The discrepancies between Sutton and the rest are baffling.

Looking at the qualifying times, Sutton was actually slower than Plato in 2 of the 3 speed traps, yet quicker around every sector. Don't know if that's down to set-up or driving style but obviously able to carry more speed through the corners.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Looking at the qualifying times, Sutton was actually slower than Plato in 2 of the 3 speed traps, yet quicker around every sector. Don't know if that's down to set-up or driving style but obviously able to carry more speed through the corners.

They did mention in coverage that Sutton had been experimenting with a different ratio for 6th gear, so perhaps that was part of the speed trap figures?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by BLiTZ

You can't help thinking that this whole mess is Plato's doing and stems back a few seasons. I get the impression 888's issues started towards the end of Plato's third season in the MG and when he took his bat and ball and Faux home that spelt the end for them.

Was his departure from 888 a cause, or consequence, of the issues though?
Or just a coincidence?

[BLiTZ]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Was his departure from 888 a cause, or consequence, of the issues though?
Or just a coincidence?

I'm inclined to say cause, as I imagine he brought the majority of the budget to the table with Tesco and his other sponsors, sure Tordoff brought JCT600 but they only had small stickers on the cars so wont have been putting as much onto the pot. Without Plato's backing 888 didn't have much of a backup plan (a repeat of when Vauxhall pulled out).

Look how much sponsorship Jordan and Goff had to plaster over the cars to get in to what turned out to be a mediocre pair of seats.

True, there could have been some consequence too, things obvioulsy weren't rosey towards the end of his time there (though I think it was more a case of the grass is always greener on the RWD side that made him want to part ways).

It also makes you wonder where he'd be if he'd pushed to get a different manufacturer on the grid and stuck with FWD? I know VW would be unlikely due to Diesel-gate but he went well in the Passat and had he put as much effort into bringing a better FWD contender into the pack rather than trying to bend the rules with the Franken-baru how the scene could be different?

I'm not a Plato fan by any means but not having him at the sharp end does feel odd and loses some of the pantomime of the BTCC.

[AdrianM]

Hardly bending the rules. The Subaru was the perfect car for the way the rules were written at the time.

Yes, he might have been a bit naive thinking the rules would stay that way but if the project had started a month earlier I wouldn't have bet against them taking manufacturers and drivers titles last season.

[Sodemo]

I think Subaru do have some right to feel hard done by. Honda seemingly enjoy a massive braking advantage through clever technical engineering that they have employed, I don't see too much of a difference with any kind of advantage Subaru had.

[Northern Monkey]

As mentioned, more from Bill Coombs at Thruxton on the Lloyd incident and Church...

http://www.touringcartimes.com/2017/...urch-incident/

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I think Subaru do have some right to feel hard done by. Honda seemingly enjoy a massive braking advantage through clever technical engineering that they have employed, I don't see too much of a difference with any kind of advantage Subaru had.

eh? they all use exactly the same suspension and exactly the same brakes. even exactly the same amount and size of brake cooling ducts and brake pads. so how can the honda have a massive braking advantage. please explain?

[redshoes]

Honda's "clever technical engineering" is nothing more than changing pads and discs after every session/race so that they always have maximum braking ability.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Honda's "clever technical engineering" is nothing more than changing pads and discs after every session/race so that they always have maximum braking ability.

thats what i thought. just better attention to detail. and budget

[BLiTZ]

I think people are also referring to Honda's clever use of the VTEC system to maximise engine braking on the 'low' cam. Again, hardly an unfair advantage as most modern engines now utilise some form of variable valve timing, just that NBE have managed to get the most out of it for this application. And those who choose to use the Swindon unit have done so because they don't want to spend on developing their own power unit.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

eh? they all use exactly the same suspension and exactly the same brakes. even exactly the same amount and size of brake cooling ducts and brake pads. so how can the honda have a massive braking advantage. please explain?

If thats the reason they can brake 4-5 metres later than everyone else then I think all teams would be changing brakes after every race.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

If thats the reason they can brake 4-5 metres later than everyone else then I think all teams would be changing brakes after every race.

There's a reason teams were glad of free sets of tyres as prizes.
Given the budgets involved, I'm sure all teams would love new discs and pads every session but they accept a compromise.

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Honda's "clever technical engineering" is nothing more than changing pads and discs after every session/race so that they always have maximum braking ability.

do they sell their used ones to small privateers ?

if they are "only" one race used

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

If thats the reason they can brake 4-5 metres later than everyone else then I think all teams would be changing brakes after every race.

If they're fresh every race, and presumably for qualifying, that means 4-6 sets of discs and pads per car every weekend. Not sure everyone could afford that.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

do they sell their used ones to small privateers ?

if they are "only" one race used

It's probably not just a case of new pads, but that they can set the car up to use the full life of pads/discs during the race giving them maximum efficiency.

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by AdrianM

Plato was saying on the Flux blog that it's critical to get the car in fast traffic otherwise they can't progress. Could it just be that getting a good quali position is hyper important in that car?

I don't think that it is just the Subarus that suffer from that. It's clearly affecting the Motorbase Fords and the Team HARD CCs.

[BLiTZ]

Originally Posted by sceptic

I don't think that it is just the Subarus that suffer from that. It's clearly affecting the Motorbase Fords and the Team HARD CCs.

No, I think the problem there, is (with a couple of exceptions) that the drivers of said cars aren't exactly at the sharp end of the pack to begin with!

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by sceptic

I don't think that it is just the Subarus that suffer from that. It's clearly affecting the Motorbase Fords and the Team HARD CCs.

There are a few not going as well as expected, but probably each for different reasons.
The Subaru's current strength is in the corners (as acknowledged by Sutton and Scott). The problem Plato refers to is getting held up in corners by slower cars.
The Fords seem to struggle with delivery of power, which gives them less driveability that is highlighted by lack of experience.
The CC's had all their early development on the GPRM parts, and seem to be struggling to get the RML parts to perform.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

It's probably not just a case of new pads, but that they can set the car up to use the full life of pads/discs during the race giving them maximum efficiency.

Probably use the used ones in free practice and testing

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by sceptic

I don't think that it is just the Subarus that suffer from that. It's clearly affecting the Motorbase Fords and the Team HARD CCs.

I think Motorbase have been shafted with BOP - no power - this is the risk with a BOP formula. One week you are quick then in the blink of an eye you have a scrap car / team and you cannot control it.

[one_day]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Honda's "clever technical engineering" is nothing more than changing pads and discs after every session/race so that they always have maximum braking ability.

So do Team Dynamics use 6 sets of brakes per car every weekend?

[one_day]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

They did mention in coverage that Sutton had been experimenting with a different ratio for 6th gear, so perhaps that was part of the speed trap figures?

How many different ratios can the teams use?