[Driver] Susie Wolff/women competing in motorsport (Merged)

[BSchneiderFan]

All of this is probably not being helped by the non-specialist media talking up Wolff as one of the female drivers most likely to break into F1. It's never going to happen.

[Asa]

Originally Posted by Ostrogothicus

I'd like to see Patrick, de Silvestro, Beatriz and Legge have proper multi-day tests in F1, at the upcoming Abu Dhabi test for example.

I would like to see a Women's F1 World Championship. It will be just like tennis' WTP tour.

If tennis can have men's tour (ATP) and women's tour (WTP), then why shouldn't F1 have separate men's and women's championships?

Serena Williams and Maria Sharapova may not be as good as Rafael Nadal and Novak Djokovic, but I don't think anyone will say the two ladies are useless at tennis. It should be the same for motorsport.

F1 teams do not have to spend extra on car research and design, the women can race the same spec cars, so the teams just need to manufacture more cars. Given today's long lasting engines and the extra exposure that they are sure to get, it will cost them almost nothing.

[bella]

speaking as a woman, i wouldn't. history has been kind enough to give us an equal opportunity to compete against men in motorsport which is a right we've been striving for in other areas of life for hundreds of years. why segregate and throw that away? it's not ability that's seperating us, it's opportunity and funding.

[Asa]

Originally Posted by bella

speaking as a woman, i wouldn't. history has been kind enough to give us an equal opportunity to compete against men in motorsport which is a right we've been striving for in other areas of life for hundreds of years. why segregate and throw that away? it's not ability that's seperating us, it's opportunity and funding.

Motorsport, along with horse racing, are the only sports where men and women compete together. But honestly for the last 60 years that F1 has existed no women has ever been successful and yet F1 keeps going this way, why?

If I were an F1 team boss and someone came up to me and say he will start a women's F1 championship, all I need to do is to build two more cars and employ a few more staff to look after the two women drivers, and then he will pay me 30-50% more money than I am getting, I would jump at it. I would never say no to more money and more media coverage for the team.

This is a business. Look at how much money Maria Sharapova is making and she has never beaten Rafael Nadal or Roger Federer. I don't hear people say she is a bad tennis player because of that.

[werner]

I know I wouldn't watch it. It would just be second division. And in tennis, or field-hockey or beachvolleybal, wich I also watch less often than the male equivalent, the athletes at least look attractive, witch is useless when tucked away in a tub, wearing an overall and a helmet.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by werner

I know I wouldn't watch it. It would just be second division. And in tennis, or field-hockey or beachvolleybal, wich I also watch less often than the male equivalent, the athletes at least look attractive, witch is useless when tucked away in a tub, wearing an overall and a helmet.

Didn't even know men plated beach volleyball ...

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by bella

speaking as a woman, i wouldn't. history has been kind enough to give us an equal opportunity to compete against men in motorsport which is a right we've been striving for in other areas of life for hundreds of years. why segregate and throw that away? it's not ability that's seperating us, it's opportunity and funding.

And interest. To me it seems like female drivers sometimes have an easier time finding funding (thanks to a unique selling point), but there's just less of them to go around. When you start off with a small pool no wonder it's harder to find good drivers. Not seeing any F1 drivers from Liechtenstein. But hey, there's a monegasque leading GP2 so it seems sooner or later you'll stumble onto someone.

[bella]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

And interest. To me it seems like female drivers sometimes have an easier time finding funding (thanks to a unique selling point), but there's just less of them to go around.

i see what you mean, but i think you need to check the stories of ladies like louise cook, who does wrc races occasionally on a properly miniscule budget. i think that's perception. and perhaps what you see as sponsorship is just product endorsement that gets them a few free toys.

it would be nice if it was a unique selling point, but i'm not sure it is.

[alan1302]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

And interest. To me it seems like female drivers sometimes have an easier time finding funding (thanks to a unique selling point), but there's just less of them to go around. When you start off with a small pool no wonder it's harder to find good drivers. Not seeing any F1 drivers from Liechtenstein. But hey, there's a monegasque leading GP2 so it seems sooner or later you'll stumble onto someone.

I think it would be just as difficult for a woman to get funding than a man - if not more so as you are not expected to get to the top.

When a woman does break into F1 though I do believe she would then have sponsorship thrown at her and earn mega money very quickly.

On the idea of an F1 championship for women only - sounds an awful idea to me. Women don't have a disadvantage in F1 as they do in physical sports such as cycling so there is no need to have a seperate championship.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by bella

i see what you mean, but i think you need to check the stories of ladies like louise cook, who does wrc races occasionally on a properly miniscule budget. i think that's perception. and perhaps what you see as sponsorship is just product endorsement that gets them a few free toys.

it would be nice if it was a unique selling point, but i'm not sure it is.

Oh, there's certainly plenty of girls/women who struggle for budget too. This will be a talking point until someone actually does it and proves themselves. No-one is talking about Hamilton as "F1's black driver" because he's simply good enough.

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

Not seeing any F1 drivers from Liechtenstein.

There was Rikky von Opel.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by bella

speaking as a woman, i wouldn't. history has been kind enough to give us an equal opportunity to compete against men in motorsport which is a right we've been striving for in other areas of life for hundreds of years. why segregate and throw that away? it's not ability that's seperating us, it's opportunity and funding.

I totally agree.

If there were more women in Formula Renault and Formula 3, then it would be easier for them to get into Formula 1.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

I have removed a number of posts in order to keep this thread on subject.

There have been warnings issued. More can be handed out if it returns to the way it was.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by bella

i see what you mean, but i think you need to check the stories of ladies like louise cook, who does wrc races occasionally on a properly miniscule budget. i think that's perception. and perhaps what you see as sponsorship is just product endorsement that gets them a few free toys.

it would be nice if it was a unique selling point, but i'm not sure it is.

I think the "unique selling point" or the novelty has worn off by now. It's not anything new or different anymore to have a woman competing in motorsport.

And if they are trying to source women oriented sponsors, it is still a sport mainly consumed by a male public.

Women are in the same boat men are. Motorsport is extremely expensive with few benefits versus the costs for sponsors at most levels of the sport. Nobody gives you bags of cash in this world for free. If you've got a rich daddy and rich husband like Susie Wolff did and does, you can indulge. No different from a man in the same situation. This "sport" is different from most in that it will always require a fuel of big cash. Talent is usually secondary unless you are a top F1 team.

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by Asa

I would like to see a Women's F1 World Championship. It will be just like tennis' WTP tour.

If tennis can have men's tour (ATP) and women's tour (WTP), then why shouldn't F1 have separate men's and women's championships?

Serena Williams and Maria Sharapova may not be as good as Rafael Nadal and Novak Djokovic, but I don't think anyone will say the two ladies are useless at tennis. It should be the same for motorsport.

F1 teams do not have to spend extra on car research and design, the women can race the same spec cars, so the teams just need to manufacture more cars. Given today's long lasting engines and the extra exposure that they are sure to get, it will cost them almost nothing.

Originally Posted by Asa

Motorsport, along with horse racing, are the only sports where men and women compete together. But honestly for the last 60 years that F1 has existed no women has ever been successful and yet F1 keeps going this way, why?

If I were an F1 team boss and someone came up to me and say he will start a women's F1 championship, all I need to do is to build two more cars and employ a few more staff to look after the two women drivers, and then he will pay me 30-50% more money than I am getting, I would jump at it. I would never say no to more money and more media coverage for the team.

This is a business. Look at how much money Maria Sharapova is making and she has never beaten Rafael Nadal or Roger Federer. I don't hear people say she is a bad tennis player because of that.

Alright. Say tomorrow, Jean Todt grants you your wish, seeing as though you think it's warranted. Tomorrow, he announces a Women's F1 title starting 2016.

Fill the grid?

[garcon]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

Fill the grid?

Easily. Although some would probably question the depth of quality.

But that still misses the point made by many that in motorsport we should be looking for more women to compete on equal terms in the same competitions as men. Even as a route to that I don't think a women's championship is the answer.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by garcon

we should be looking for more women to compete on equal terms in the same competitions as men.

Why? If they're interested they'll do it, if they're not interested they won't. Even if all drives were free you wouldn't get a 50/50 split of genders - they're simply aren't as many women that want to be racing drivers. There's nothing stopping women getting out there and racing but they're not doing it in any great numbers - largely because they don't want to. As far as the money goes it's the same for women as men surely? They need a rich daddy who'll pay their way through the ranks. Any specific attempt to bring more women into the sport is just hugely patronising isn't it? (Formula woman anyone?).

[Greem]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

There's nothing stopping women getting out there and racing but they're not doing it in any great numbers - largely because they don't want to.

The reasons for which are...?

If anyone can answer that one fully & completely then you either have, are working towards, or should be working towards a higher degree in social psychology with a specialisation in gender politics & stereotypical gender/social imprinting in childhood.

A far simpler way to look at this: go into Toys'R'Us, or watch Nickleodeon for a couple of hours. If you stand back and look at the marketing, it is truly terrifying.

[bella]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I think the "unique selling point" or the novelty has worn off by now. It's not anything new or different anymore to have a woman competing in motorsport.

And if they are trying to source women oriented sponsors, it is still a sport mainly consumed by a male public.

in one, sir. the only thing women can specifically be used for instead of men is to sexualise marketing of non-gender specific or male orientated products. most of us don't really want any part in that kind of nonsense.

it's not unusual or different to have women in motorsport, yet we still seem to be judged by elevated standards. like we have to be extra special good at it to be there cause you know, otherwise we'll make the gender look bad or something.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by bella

it's not unusual or different to have women in motorsport, yet we still seem to be judged by elevated standards. like we have to be extra special good at it to be there cause you know, otherwise we'll make the gender look bad or something.

That isn't what I see out there now, but perhaps some use that hang up as an excuse for a lack of talent. "Oh boo hoo hoo, I'm being judged harshly as a driver because I am a woman, boo hoo hoo". The reality is, no, you just suck as a race car driver and should look at another sport or job. There are tons of men drivers that suck too.

The novelty has long worn off and in I just don't see people out there looking at women like that as though they are judged in an extra special way. In motorsport you are judged in two different ways. One is by how much talent you have. The second is how much money you can bring. Money probably tops talent in motorsport.

There are very, very few "professional" motorsport teams that exist that hire drivers on merit. So most of these teams are motorsports services companies that have equipment, the use and maintenance of which is hired out to the top bidder. What their sex is or any other similar factor doesn't matter to these team owners. Ideally they are looking for someone with both talent and money, but will take the money if need be.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Why? If they're interested they'll do it, if they're not interested they won't. Even if all drives were free you wouldn't get a 50/50 split of genders - they're simply aren't as many women that want to be racing drivers. There's nothing stopping women getting out there and racing but they're not doing it in any great numbers - largely because they don't want to. As far as the money goes it's the same for women as men surely? They need a rich daddy who'll pay their way through the ranks. Any specific attempt to bring more women into the sport is just hugely patronising isn't it? (Formula woman anyone?).

The vast majority of people who drive racing cars do so with their disposable income and maybe a few handouts from people they connect with or are friends with.

I have been around the world and have seen motorsport from the dead bottom to the top and I just don't see that many women that spend their disposable income on competing in motorsport. What their reasons are, I am sure can be speculated but it's clear that they have other priorities on the whole. Motorsport is a voluntary business and no one forces you to spend your hard earned money on it.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Greem

The reasons for which are...?

If anyone can answer that one fully & completely then you either have, are working towards, or should be working towards a higher degree in social psychology with a specialisation in gender politics & stereotypical gender/social imprinting in childhood.

A far simpler way to look at this: go into Toys'R'Us, or watch Nickleodeon for a couple of hours. If you stand back and look at the marketing, it is truly terrifying.

well said. we see the effects of this not just in sports but also our universities and workplaces. most universities now enjoy a gender gap which slightly favour women to men yet we are still not seeing a corresponding 50/50 split in workplace equality, particularly in fields like sciences, maths, engineering. lots of work still to do before we live in a truly equal society imo. ironically it was an extension of Henry Ford's insight that paying your employees a fair wage means that you can then sell them products..the post war era just saw an extension of that logic to society as a whole.

interestingly back in my uni days i had an economics prof who made the point that the post war growth was not the result of rebuilding, new tech, greater flow of money/investments etc but rather because of greater inclusion of women in the work place (a fortunate consequence of prolonged war) and the creation of whole new industries aimed at selling products to that new segment of the work force. now we just need to pay them the same wage as they pay men and we will set off another economic boom cycle.

Originally Posted by bella

in one, sir. the only thing women can specifically be used for instead of men is to sexualise marketing of non-gender specific or male orientated products. most of us don't really want any part in that kind of nonsense.

with the above in mind, its surprising really when you consider that money and endorsements deals for F1 (and all motorsports) has been drying up for years. that having more women on the grid and increasing the number of women watching at home opens up F1 to a host of new potential advertisers that were never there before and who are interested in selling products to women as opposed to exploiting women to sell products to men.

and the knock of that is there would be then be more sponsorship money available for all of the drivers not less and that benefits everyone.

for example car companies are already designing and selling cars aimed at female consumers yet seem to have no interest in advertising their cars in the same way they advertise cars to men...which of course involves funding race teams and having male drivers in their commercials. they are simply caught up in the past.

Mountainstar, perhaps you are right to think the novelty has worn off but ,again with the above in mind, i dont think anyone has yet found a way to use women in motorsports in an effective way. lack of foresight imo. motorsports is a dying sport in many respects and i dont see how they can hope to survive the next 25 years while turning their back on 50% of the market place.

and they are in a unique position that if they spend money to promote women in the sport today they have an advantage over every other gender specific sport. its a game changer.

to flip around BE's very sexist comment, women shouldnt be at home dressed like domestic appliances rather they should be on the grid selling them because thats where the money is.

so i do think that if you find ways to include them in an effective and responsible way then you will find that more women will spend their disposable income in the pursuit of motorsports.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

well said. we see the effects of this not just in sports but also our universities and workplaces. most universities now enjoy a gender gap which slightly favour women to men yet we are still not seeing a corresponding 50/50 split in workplace equality, particularly in fields like sciences, maths, engineering. lots of work still to do before we live in a truly equal society imo. ironically it was an extension of Henry Ford's insight that paying your employees a fair wage means that you can then sell them products..the post war era just saw an extension of that logic to society as a whole.

interestingly back in my uni days i had an economics prof who made the point that the post war growth was not the result of rebuilding, new tech, greater flow of money/investments etc but rather because of greater inclusion of women in the work place (a fortunate consequence of prolonged war) and the creation of whole new industries aimed at selling products to that new segment of the work force. now we just need to pay them the same wage as they pay men and we will set off another economic boom cycle.



with the above in mind, its surprising really when you consider that money and endorsements deals for F1 (and all motorsports) has been drying up for years. that having more women on the grid and increasing the number of women watching at home opens up F1 to a host of new potential advertisers that were never there before and who are interested in selling products to women as opposed to exploiting women to sell products to men.

and the knock of that is there would be then be more sponsorship money available for all of the drivers not less and that benefits everyone.

for example car companies are already designing and selling cars aimed at female consumers yet seem to have no interest in advertising their cars in the same way they advertise cars to men...which of course involves funding race teams and having male drivers in their commercials. they are simply caught up in the past.

Mountainstar, perhaps you are right to think the novelty has worn off but ,again with the above in mind, i dont think anyone has yet found a way to use women in motorsports in an effective way. lack of foresight imo. motorsports is a dying sport in many respects and i dont see how they can hope to survive the next 25 years while turning their back on 50% of the market place.

and they are in a unique position that if they spend money to promote women in the sport today they have an advantage over every other gender specific sport. its a game changer.

to flip around BE's very sexist comment, women shouldnt be at home dressed like domestic appliances rather they should be on the grid selling them because thats where the money is.

so i do think that if you find ways to include them in an effective and responsible way then you will find that more women will spend their disposable income in the pursuit of motorsports.

I think they are already included, both effectively and responsibly. I just think that most of them are more interested in shopping or clubbing than buying a racing car and competing in motorsport.

It seems what you are talking about is cargo cult economics, in that if motorsports spends all this money to "responsibly include" all these people that have NO interest in being included, that we will obtain all these wonderful yet undefined benefits in excess of the spend. I believe that is a good reason why western society is in debt up to it's eyeballs, spending money on crap with negligible benefits.

I think the reason why motorsport is having issues is because costs have gone up due to environmental bozos, government regulation, insurance and liability costs and the fact that everyone wants "level the playing field" with boring spec cars. Motorsport is and always has been about ruthless, cutthroat competition, not being fair and equal.

Despite the attempts of the feminist movement that in order for everything to be equal, women have to do exactly everything men do, I think nature always reasserts itself and even women are not interested in a feminized motorsport where no one touches and everything is fair and "after you Claudette". No one wants to watch sissys and wimps on track. I have known plenty of women fans and they all want gladiator combat on track.

In regards to your comment about universities, men have left them in droves because they have been feminized and when it comes down to it "real work" out there in the world has to be done. Someone has to pick up the trash, fix your plumbing and roof, repair your car, herd the cows, harvest the wheat, work the oil rig, etc. I don't see women doing those jobs on a widescale. Men like to hang out with men sometimes and the same for women. I don't see why everything has to be forced together in some grand scheme of equality if we do so. I truly believe if you try to flood motorsport with tons of women, men will leave because men don't want to be around women all the time.

Equality is the talk of the utopians. It is impossible in a free society for everyone to be equal and have exactly the same life with the same things. Let people be individuals and seek out what they want. The women that really love motorsport and racing find ways to make their driving career happen, just like men do. No need to ram it down people's throats.

[bella]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

That isn't what I see out there now, but perhaps some use that hang up as an excuse for a lack of talent. "Oh boo hoo hoo, I'm being judged harshly as a driver because I am a woman, boo hoo hoo". The reality is, no, you just suck as a race car driver and should look at another sport or job. There are tons of men drivers that suck too.

i see what you mean, but in the perception of joe average or the loudest bleaters, an average female driver is often average BECAUSE she's female. gender comes into it as a reason for her not being competitive.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by bella

i see what you mean, but in the perception of joe average or the loudest bleaters, an average female driver is often average BECAUSE she's female. gender comes into it as a reason for her not being competitive.

It might be so, but so what? Joe Blow Bleater says so and so. Who cares? Life isn't fair and not everyone is going to like you. There are always plenty of excuses we have for when we fail or do not run at the front and gender could be one of those many excuses, because yes most women do not have the physical strength or mental situational awareness men do so that will always stick out like a sore thumb.

One hard lesson I had to learn in the motorsport business is that it is ruthless, cutthroat and brutal and people are going to critique you in a 100 different ways and probably call you a bunch of names too. If you want to succeed you have to be able to separate out the constructive criticism and discard all the mind games, name calling and people trying to screw with your mind.

Danica is a great example of using the gender card to obtain a free pass from the indy racing league on her light weight and to obtain steering rack concessions because she couldn't turn the steering wheel on road courses. And also to blame other drivers with when she had collisions with them, "they hit me because I am a woman".

Men and women are built differently by nature in their chemistry and physical makeup. Few women can match the physical strength and endurance of men. It's why you don't see women playing men's sports with men and few female race car drivers. They don't have the testosterone fuel to fight and do battle, nor the physical brute strength to match. If anyone thinks they do, lets combine men and women sports and put women's teams on a field with men's rugby teams and see what happens. Or women boxers with men boxers. Or women tennis players with men tennis players. Equality is a 2 way street.

I don't believe in all this stuff about men and women being equal like we are this androgynous, sexless species. We are different, always have been different and at least in our lives will remain different. Maybe equal under the law as people, but in other ways no. And I don't know why everyone wants to be the same anyways.

I think it's great if women want to compete and I'm happy to have them but I don't ascribe any great status to it like they are landing on Mars.

That said, men need an escape from women and I don't think we need them taking over every aspect of our lives in every sport, in every club, hanging on us 24/7, nagging us, pestering us with petty emotional dramas and driving us nuts. We need a place were we can go to socialize with men and do men things. I can say if Chilibowl's world domination plan for women in motorsport comes into play were men are eradicated and women are 50% of motorsport series and clubs, I'll be finding something else to do.