Should Driver Marshalling be Compulsory?

[Stephen Green]

Interesting post Denis

I would be interested to hear from a few drivers/teams what they would like marshals to do if we were to spend a day with the team. I ask only to give me some idea of what to expect as I would be more than happy to offer my services for a weekend.

As a driver spending the day on the bank with other marshals you know pretty much what to expect, it's not so clear the other way round (or is it?)

So if anyone wants to invite me along to a meeting at Brands or Lydden next year you only have to ask.

Despite all the wise cracks and general myrth in this thread, it has at least begun to achieve what it set out to do, bring all sides of motor racing closer together. Fabulous

I'm now going to sit back and wait for the flood of invitations. Just remember I'm a sad old bloke andam used to spending my days hiding from the bad weather in the Observers box

[Sheila M]

Originally posted by Denis Bassom
Interestingly this thread was started with the intention of increasing understanding on BOTH sides but has very much turned into the usual list of suggestions re getting drivers to marshall.

Denis, you are quite right, we are sounding rather selfish and wanting everything our way. However, I've never wanted to race but I did want to be involved in the sport. I couldn't get a job with a race team (which would be my idea of a perfect job) so I chose to marshal.

I am not averse to spending time with a team/driver because it would help me to understand why some of the things I may otherwise report someone for have been done.

So I'm volunteering my services to any driver/team who may be interested.

Sheila

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally posted by Denis Bassom

How about getting the marshalls to spend 25 grand plus on a vehicle with zero resale value, a couple of grand getting a licence, joining clubs etc, come racing for a day and find out what it is like to be treated like a second class citizen by circuit staff, organising clubs, officials (some), marshalls (very few), spectators and, perhaps worst of all, other racers.

Denis, whilst not on that scale, marshalling does cost money and as for the treatment - well read some of the marshals forum but let's just say that it all sounds horribly familiar

Originally posted by Denis Bassom

And to the marshall's who may come back to this saying I am a bigotted driver who needs teaching a lesson the next time they see me at a circuit I would like to point out that I have marshalled at motorbike meets and being on BOTH sides of the the fence really opens your eyes.

I think there are very few who would respond that violently. Who did you marshal for? If it was Racesafe, I'm sure they provided your overalls for you. If you're interested in the average cost of being a marshal, I wrote an article a while back that lists some of it - http://www.mrmci.com/scribbles/drivers.asp

I think the point here is a lot more to do with getting drivers to see things from a marshal perspective - particularly in light of the negative comments we get (often on this forum) regarding observing, judgement of fact type stuff, flagging, lack of oil flags, marshals not getting to an incident at all/not fast enough, flag infringements etc. I don't see that there is anything selfish in wanting to achieve a relationship where some things don't have to be explained and everything else can be rationally discussed.

Getting into a p**sing contest about who has the most commitment/has spent the most money is not going to help anything.

I would love to see things from a driver point of view and will certainly take the opportunity if it is offered.

We are all here to enjoy ourselves and our motorsport and anything that helps us work together has to be worth trying.

[goforit500]

I spent a very informative and worthwhile day this year on post at Oulton. Being my local track and having benefitted from umpteen pushes and tows over the years I thought it would be good to see the other side of the Armco....And it was...

What I learnt :

1. The marshals do not have eyes in the back of the head nor and neck that can continuously rotate.

2. Things happen very quickly, quicker that they appear to happen in the car...

3. The guys & gals in orange are a good bunch, very welcoming and were open to suggestions and observations...

4. I will be back for another go and have volunteered my car for the training days if required.

5. No Marshals, No Racing - It behoves all racers to get up off their big fat !"£$%s and give a bit back whether or not you get points for it. Maybe donate the odd case of beers or even a few quid in the right direction......

6. And maybe the clincher, sitting on a post gives a unique view of the line at that particular post which could be wort a few tenths on a quick lap. Given that a performance gain like that could cost mucho looto, it is a worthwhile investment !!


<< Gets down off of soapbox....

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by goforit500
4. I will be back for another go and have volunteered my car for the training days if required.

Fire training, presumably!

Well, somebody had to say it!

[goforit500]

HA HA HA HA HA HA HAH....Cheers Dave !!

Car nearly back together in time for a charity day at Knockhill on the 6th Dec....

[greenamex2]

Evilpumpkin - Apologies if I sounded like I was trying to say my commitment to Motorsport was greater than your because I am stupid enough to spend so much, that wasn't the intention. Just trying to get the point across that if we understood each others 'problems' better than we will ALL be better off.

As for which club it was, this was about a thousand years ago and being a racer driver I haven't enough brains to remember what happened two minutes ago let alone then. What I do remember is that if anyone thinks that it is a cheap or easy way of watching racing they have got a bit of a shock coming. I also remember, which is what prompted the posting, the general lack of awareness of what racing real means from the rider/drivers point of view.

As for donations to the marshalls, the BARC race entry form includes a box to make a voluntary donation to them. I don't where the money goes but I hope you chaps (and ladies) get something you want out of it.

Don't know whether the other clubs do this but they jolly well should do.

As for tagging along with a driver. Just go up to any driver in the paddock that looks like he is on his own or just got a nagging husband/wife complaining about cost/weather/noise etc, ask them if they fancy some help at some circuit in future and I am sure they will jump at the chance.

Hurrah for the marshalls, I'll see in the next gravel trap I dump my car in.

[MikeM]

Not too far off - brave man! A few drivers are happy to help out on the Oulton training days and are waiting to find out what they want us to do (within reason!)I have suggested a few cars in the scrutineering bay to show novices (and anyone else interested) about the safety devices - happy to do this if wanted. Hope they will want us to drive cars again like last year!!

[goforit500]

No Problem Mike - Standard rules apply !!

[diz]

Originally posted by Dave Brand
Fire training, presumably!

Well, somebody had to say it!

I held back from mentioning it
For those who missed it, my photos of the frying Cossie can be seen on
brsccnw.com

[Stacy]

I would contest that while it's undoubtedly a good thing to get drivers on the banks, to support the meetings more than anything, the BMW regulation does I think dilute a good /racing/ championship.

Clearly done with the best of intentions, but what it gives with one hand, I think (as well as do some other drivers I've canvassed) it takes with the other. Still, hurrah for trying.

There must be other incentives to get some of the club on the bank which don't detract from the racing though - paying their expenses from your drivers fund, a mashalls supporters trophy, discount of dinner dance tickets maybe?

As an aside, if I were to volunteer (which I'm entirely open to since I'm not doing a full championship while a new car is in prep) would I get some say in which post I'm at ? I'm aware that going in as a newbie volunteer will mean being placed at the gate!

Just interested.

Cheers

Stacy

[MikeM]

Stacy, I defered marshalling for a few years in case they put me on carparks or similar, they didn't - and I regreted not doing it earlier. At Oulton, you would normally have a day going round the track first and then straight onto a post next time. Check your local club/marshals representative and see what they say. They will also be able to tell you about post allocations

[diz]

Originally posted by MikeM
Stacy, I defered marshalling for a few years in case they put me on carparks or similar, they didn't

Pity that Mike. You are very presentable, polite and would have been far superior to the black bomber jacketed crews the circuits tend to use nowadays.
Also you are a credit to both the marshalling and race driving communities. Your views are much appreciated. I await an email, or PM with some interest
Diz

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally posted by Denis Bassom
I also remember, which is what prompted the posting, the general lack of awareness of what racing real means from the rider/drivers point of view.

I think that depends on the marshal. Maybe because the Irish motorsport community is smaller, we do tend to know a lot of the drivers - at least to say hello to - and get to hear quite a bit about what they think of the proceedings - and to tell them what we thought as well.

Originally posted by Denis Bassom

As for tagging along with a driver. Just go up to any driver in the paddock that looks like he is on his own or just got a nagging husband/wife complaining about cost/weather/noise etc, ask them if they fancy some help at some circuit in future and I am sure they will jump at the chance.

LOL - I'd love to! As soon as I can find a day when the Chief Marshal will turn around to me and say "yes we're overmanned today - run along and play"

[MikeM]

Diz - is that you?? You must have:-
a. had a great weekend
b. had a great alcoholic lunch
c. thought of the wrong Mike
d. be ill
e. confused all four of the above

Or am I assuming the scouse sense of humour?

I have been liasing with Walshy recently and will contact you in the next few days

[Cynic]

I understand that the point of this thread was about getting drivers to marshal more, rather than assembling a list of grumbles from each side, but I have found that when you do have a driver marshalling, more info tends to go from the marshals to the driver than the other way around.
As far as understanding drivers problems go, I think we are all aware of the financial implications. I'm sure I'm not the only marshal in the world who chose marshalling because they couldn't afford to go racing. I don't however limit my activities to the bank. I've lost count of the number of times I've helped drivers unload their cars from their trailers for example. (quick tip to any FF1600 drivers out there - the taillift on a Luton van is NOT long enough!)
Where I have found drivers input useful is in discussing lines of sight. Quite often the same corner can look completely different from opposite sides of the track, and different again when you drive round it. Perhaps something as simple as persuading track owners to allow marshals to walk or drive a circuit prior to racing starting could totally change realationships between the two sides.
Anyway, to get back to the heart of the debate - persuading drivers to marshal more. I think the Caterhams have probably got the only viable solution. Offer the drivers some sort of carrot (championship points, 10% off the entry fee, whatever), and then rely on us making them welcome and giving them such an enjoyable experience that they want to come back.

[greenamex2]

Evil pumpkin

Sounds like you talk to each other more than we do.

The marshalls over here do walk around the pits during the break but are usually in large packs (if that is the correct term for a collection of marshalls) and don't seem to talk the drivers that much. On occassion when they do the comments can be less than constructive in building a relationship ("you don't want to race this Japanese pile of junk you want a Ford" springs to mind, particularly annoying after having just beaten all the Fords in my class and the ones above it).

Likewise the drivers tend to collect in groups (should that be called an "accident") and talk amongst themselves. Or are really busy trying to fix some malady with their car and are then not generally interested in anyone else in the entire universe that doesn't have a magic wand.

Perhaps this is the result of a national trait or part of a 'them and us' attitude that has developed over time.

Regarding the tag along things, I was thinking more when you WEREN'T marshalling one weekend!!!

[Gizmo]

Denis, I see the point that you make, marshals and drivers alike staying together in their own groupings and to a certain extent I would agree with you having done it myself. I often feel that I would be intruding at a time when frankly, you drivers are either having your own lunch or working frantically to fix the car ready for the afternoon race. Crazystu spent a weekend last year with one of the top ten hillclimbers helping out and was utterly surprised at how little time there is to get all the work done.
In the hillclimbing fraternity, there is a greater amount of social interaction between drivers and marshals perhaps because they are all there for the whole weekend and so have time to chat at the bar afterwards discussing each others day good or bad.We have certainly had drivers spend time on the bank with us and they too have found the experience useful in various ways. Some have seen the stresses and starins that cars go through at various points and wince a little. Several have learned a lot about the best line to take through that particular corner. One lunchtime I was encouraging a driver to leave the track as he was late taking a walk up the hill, when he mentioned that he just could not get a certain bend right. I said "You are turning in too soon, then having to readjust"
At the end of the day he came looking for me to say thanks as he had checked the car as a result of my comments and found the tracking very slightly out!
On the other side of the coin we have picked up a lot of tips about how to handle certain cars should they come to grief without causing further damage. Last year we arranged short training sessions immed after practice on saturdays. Any amount of cars were offered for us to use for familiarisation and the reigning British champion, Graeme Wight Jnr spoke to our group about lines of sight from a single seaters point of view.
We can all learn a lot from each other to help us enjoy our favourite sport together.

[KayBee]

Originally posted by Cynic
Perhaps something as simple as persuading track owners to allow marshals to walk or drive a circuit prior to racing starting could totally change realationships between the two sides.

For some circuits you have to drive on the circuit to get to your allocated post.

Also, you could always arrive early at your post and have a careful wander down the track so that you can try to get a feel for that particular post.

As to driver marshalling being compulsory a big fat NO, however, I do believe that drivers, especially Novices or those who are returning to their sport, should be encouraged to spend a day on the bank and experience the whole marshalling experience. I would like to see drivers/riders blue flagging.

When a competitor joins me on the bank, providing they are OK, I usually suggest that they watch how the other competitors cope with that particular piece of track.

[Stuart Hill]

Originally posted by stacy

There must be other incentives to get some of the club on the bank which don't detract from the racing though - paying their expenses from your drivers fund, a mashalls supporters trophy, discount of dinner dance tickets maybe?

As an aside, if I were to volunteer (which I'm entirely open to since I'm not doing a full championship while a new car is in prep) would I get some say in which post I'm at ? I'm aware that going in as a newbie volunteer will mean being placed at the gate!

Just interested.

Cheers

Stacy

Ok, two answers I think are needed here... but only from a Hillclimbing viewpoint.

The Midland Hillclimb Marshals have a special achievement award. It goes to Marshals/Drivers/Coordinators or even Clubs to recognise their efforts or achievemnets during the season. Totally unconnected, tickets for both the British and Midland Dinner Dance Awards are offered to marshals at half price.


I can only speak as an ex-Chief Marshal but, I would never put a first-timer on the gate!! I would hope to get the hook in nice and deep and so would put them on a "good" post. We all know that some posts are perceived better than others and so to me it''s obvious where any newcomers should be posted.

Others may see it otherwise, that's up to them, but if I'm the chief then the newbies will hopefully have a lot to do and so will feel part of it and be encouraged to return.

[kartingdad]

How about getting Clerks of Course to visit the planet Earth!

[Stuart Hill]

Originally posted by kartingdad
How about getting Clerks of Course to visit the planet Earth!

Now you're asking!!
Would they get an invite?
Who'd sign the visas???
D'you know anyone who'd stump up the bail????

[diz]

Originally posted by kartingdad
How about getting Clerks of Course to visit the planet Earth!

KD
You'd never get to meet them if they did, cos you'd still be orbiting Planet Stuieus

[kartingdad]

Well actually Diz, i met one at the weekend. I thought he was a complete to$$er, but then realised I must have been mistaken as he had a BRSCC shirt'n tie on.

Underneath his spacesuit.LOL!!!

[johnw]

Originally posted by stacy
I would contest that while it's undoubtedly a good thing to get drivers on the banks, to support the meetings more than anything, the BMW regulation does I think dilute a good /racing/ championship.

Clearly done with the best of intentions, but what it gives with one hand, I think (as well as do some other drivers I've canvassed) it takes with the other.

Stacy, I'm obviously missing something, I don't at all understand the points above.
Just to be clear about our motives, getting drivers on the banks is nothing to do with supporting the meetings. It is an attempt to improve the communication between drivers and marshals. By understanding the pressures and constraints they work under, we have made changes in our regs that will assist them and us to get more of what we want.
How and what do you think that our new reg dilutes?
What is it that we give with one hand and take away with the other?

There must be other incentives to get some of the club on the bank which don't detract from the racing though -

Maybe this is the bit I am not getting. We are expecting drivers to do their marshalling day on other than a BMW race day, so how it would detract from the racing?

I'm aware that going in as a newbie volunteer will mean being placed at the gate!

Not true.
I did a day at Donington and spent the morning flag waving on Pit Exit; understanding why there is still a need for Timekeepers when we have all invested(?) in transponders; Learning how incidents are controlled in Race control, and seeing how the Clerks follow up observers reports.(Or why they don't.)

In the afternoon I was on the post near the spark plug (after the old hairpin) with an observer, flagger and a bunch of incident marshals. I saw how difficult a job they do when well manned. Cannot imagine what it is like when they are short of people. Even with years of racing experience, I now realise that wouldn't be remotely capable of flagging without training; and even then, I will not live long enough to match the skills of Chigley (not meant to demean anyone else, just that Ian was the flagger on "my" post).
From this, we have made changes to our regs, which will make the observers job clearer in the case of the BMW championship. I'm taking the same issues to the MSA for consideration, and hopefully implementation in the Blue Book.

On top of this I had a great time, was treated royally by the marshals, better understand why they do it and have some new friends who I find as enthusiastic as me about motorsport. Bit of a no brainer.
Please do let me know the answers to my questions. It's not too late to change anything we (I) have cocked up.