Too many events and series in 2011

[Al Weyman]

There is something in what you say Max which is why the CTCRC has now cut its meetings down to 8 a year with many double headers. This decision was taken as the result of a membership survey two years running and was the prefered format by the members.

[p261brm]

Sorry Peter, a real head buried in the sand approach is 'if you can not afford it don't do it'; the cost of fuel is a matter for concern, the rise will again cut the level of spectator interest, already at a low ebb at most meetings, and if clubs can not recoup enough via the gate, the cost of circuit charges will again be a rise in entry fee's, followed by a sharp downturn in series/events, [maybe not a bad result] and entries. I fear as comrade chunder does the elitest events will survive, mostly across the ditch, and that really will be a loser upon loser result for all of us no matter what level or what the involvement.

[Peter Mallett]

Sorry I disagree entirely. Are there too many events or series is not the same as can anyone afford to do them?

What is an elitist event?

If you look at the calendar as produced there are a variety of events happening on simaultaneous weekends. You can only enter one event so would you do an HSCC or a CTCRC or a Masters event and if so why? That would then possibly tell us whether there are too many to choose from or if there is too much overlap.

The cost of competing is immaterial to the question simply because if you can't afford to do it then no matter how many events there are it won't matter. You may want to apply cost to the event but if you don't add in travel costs etc. the equation is meaningless anyway. 6 hours of running is the same in terms of the race car whether it's four 1.5 hour races or one 6hour race. The travel getting to and from the four events would conceivably make them more expensive than the single 6hr event. Hence cost has no bearing on the question.

[chunder]

What will happen is that historic racing will largely remain as it is already.

The top series will still be mainly for company directors, chairmen etc in their hired Winnebago's doing the Classic and Masters events in cars they never see or work on.

The real stuff will still exist I suspect, things like HSCC and VSCC meets which are great fun and far more entertaining. Maybe amalgamated together as tracks are forced to have fewer dates through noise issues.

These top level guys don't work on their cars much, most of t id farmed out to specialists, they just turn up and drive, so that has little to do with petrol and costs, these people would race anything as it is their hobby, that's why most of them are bog slow! lol

My reasoning is that soon the entry fee will be matched by the petrol costs! And that is going to be too much when you weight in with rebuilds, racewear, tyres etc.

I follow short oval racing which most on here will look over their glasses at, but there, you are paid to race and at the very least you pay a tiny entry fee. Their petrol costs are still bad but outweighed by prizemoney and a minimum of start money. The cars cost a lot at the top level but 100 grand for a Cortina, pleeeeezzzeee! (and yes of course Jim Clark raced it!)

This will of course never happen in MSA events, but means that form of racing might start getting more popular as 300 quid entry fees and 150 pound petrol costs mean a 500 quid race weekend no matter where you race.

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

The cost of fuel has absolutely nothing to do with the number of series/championships which is the question posed in this thread. It may or may not have a bearing on entries but that's a different matter.

So, what is your solution to the number of series/championships? What do you think should be done to reduce them, if indeed thare are too many?

A slightly "interpretive" reading of the "question posed in this thread", methinks, Peter. the OP was: "With more events, both in the UK and in Europe, plus several new series, are there enough cars and drivers to fill the grids? It looks as though times will be harder for all of us and fuel seems to be steadily rising in price etc. Many folk are thinking of doing fewer events and a few are stopping.
As in 2010 there were some thin grids are we spreading competitors too thinly and will all the series and new meetings survive given they are chasing the same competitors? "

As I read that the question was essentially will the "series" be viable given the pressures, including fuel cost, on competitors' budgets? In which case the cost of fuel is plainly a significant factor.

How you control and or restrict the number of events/series is an entirely different matter - and I tend to suspect that as others have said, there is no simple solution, and a number of event / series organisers will find their finances in trouble. One of my concerns is that low grids will be unattractive to Marshals who will already be stretched by the profusion of events, and we may find events cancelled for lack of cover - which will be to nobody's benefit. As I may not be able to afford to race this season myself, I intend to do some marshalling myself, but inevitably travelling costs may constrain this to the nearer circuits.

[midgetman]

>>>>>>What is an elitist event?

Silverstone Classic, Goodwood etc etc...the sort of place your entry is by invitation or by having a car not available to most.

>>>>>>>The cost of competing is immaterial to the question simply because if you can't afford to do it then no matter how many events there are it won't matter.

But that is exactly the point. It may be if one series offers one 20 minute race for £300 on 10 weekends but another offer three 30 minute races on 5 weekends for £600, then the competitors will vote with their wheels. And the Market will decide which survives based on what the majority of competitors wants. But it's going to be a difficult few years.

It's not simply a case of "not affording it", it's often a case of "can afford some but not all, so which one?" you're being over-simplistic here.

[Al Weyman]

Also the money boys may be OK and able to continue unabated but without the lower order canon fodder to beat their sport is not going to be so interesting is it? Same with house prices, if young first time buyers cannot get a mortgage to purchase a 100k flat then the price of multi million pound mansions will also eventually be effected.

[chunder]

The difference is with houses that for some reason the country is utterly obssesed with owning a house rather than just living in it!

A lot of Europe rent and will always, but in the UK the obssesion is in owning. Buy to let has replaced mortgages meaning rent is going up and fewer house for sale as people buy far more thean they should.

Racing is a minority thing, but historic racing is growing, mainly coz the people that make the money in this country thankfully like to be rubbish in historic cars at the weekend!

Hence I doubt the sport will suffer much, until fuel and taxes price us off the roads entirely x!

[Paul D]

That's a valid point Al. Even in many so-called 'grass-roots' series, there's usually a few guys at the sharp end with £20K, £30K or even £40K+ plus cars - but the bulk of the field is made up of the rest of us in largely sub-£10K cars. Of course, the guys with the expensive machinery have every right to be there, but the point is, these series' can't survive on just five or six machines circulating can they? They need the rest of us to make up the grids, because no matter how much money the cheque book club brings with them, it's not financially viable to run the races with a handful of entries is it?

And as Richard said - races with sparse grids puts off spectators and marshals. Who wants to turn out to watch a club race with six or seven cars cruising round nose to tail for the duration? I know I wouldn't.

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by chunder

The top series will still be mainly for company directors, chairmen etc in their hired Winnebago's doing the Classic and Masters events in cars they never see or work on.

The real stuff will still exist I suspect, things like HSCC and VSCC meets which are great fun and far more entertaining. Maybe amalgamated together as tracks are forced to have fewer dates through noise issues.

These top level guys don't work on their cars much, most of t id farmed out to specialists, they just turn up and drive, so that has little to do with petrol and costs, these people would race anything as it is their hobby, that's why most of them are bog slow! lol

I follow short oval racing which most on here will look over their glasses at, but there, you are paid to race and at the very least you pay a tiny entry fee. .

my goodness that is some chip you have on your shoulder!!!

I race with HSCC and Masters and dont have a Winnebago so I am not sure where I and many others who do the same fit in to your generic grouping....

Funnily enough I tend to find those with good prep teams tend to win

As for Oval Racing you would have to pay most to do it........

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by midgetman

>>>>>>>The cost of competing is immaterial to the question simply because if you can't afford to do it then no matter how many events there are it won't matter.

But that is exactly the point. It may be if one series offers one 20 minute race for £300 on 10 weekends but another offer three 30 minute races on 5 weekends for £600, then the competitors will vote with their wheels. And the Market will decide which survives based on what the majority of competitors wants. But it's going to be a difficult few years.

I still think that misses the point. If there are too many events at a high price then fine, but that's not the question. The question is "are there too many events/series?" to which the cost issue does not apply.

This is not about personal finances but rather the state of the sport as is.

JR makes the point in another thread when he looks at some events and considers them redundant, not because of cost but because they don't do what he can do elsewhere. And that is what will make the difference not whether I or Max can afford the fuel to run a three lap sprint.

Oh and Chunder. As with crap journalists who think they know about motorsport, I don't consider myself anything other than a weekend warrior.

But there are some on this forum who can, and indeed do, perform very well against the moderns, in modern cars.

[Moosehead]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

my goodness that is some chip you have on your shoulder!!!

I race with HSCC and Masters and dont have a Winnebago so I am not sure where I and many others who do the same fit in to your generic grouping....

Funnily enough I tend to find those with good prep teams tend to win

As for Oval Racing you would have to pay most to do it........

Not sure where I'd fit either! Yes I do run a big Yank and yes I do own a Winnebago...................but its not exactly new and it was a decision made to allow for more relaxing race meetings with the family, Oh and I had to sell my roadcar to finance it. I race with the CSCC and can barely afford to spectate at the bigger meetings let alone compete. But I race for fun and the whole race weekend has now become a mini holiday for us all.

[delta]

Originally Posted by Moosehead

Not sure where I'd fit either! Yes I do run a big Yank and yes I do own a Winnebago...................but its not exactly new and it was a decision made to allow for more relaxing race meetings with the family, Oh and I had to sell my roadcar to finance it. I race with the CSCC and can barely afford to spectate at the bigger meetings let alone compete. But I race for fun and the whole race weekend has now become a mini holiday for us all.

You tell em Moosieeeee.All my non racing mates and family think i have one long holiday

[bdwoody]

mmm tiz an interesting one this ,too many series/ championships and that may water down the ones that need / have had racers for a while.too few and the tracks dont make enough money so the put up the cost of track hire so that will make it more expensive anyways. sounds like a no win situation . unless of course there is the right amount of competitors and the right amount of race series's at the right tracks at the right price !
not at all easy and i dont for one minute claim to know the answer , but i will race on as long as i am having fun ,i dont have to sell my kids to do it and err in doors dont get the hump !
the organisers of these said series/championships dont just dream these things up i wouldn't imagine , there must be a thought process going on and it revolves around money. they all are trying to poach the cars from some place else with a new angle( german car series/vag/tin tops ..ect) but as said above it aint much good going to a meet with ya M3 if there are only 8 cars that turn up !

[chunder]

Typical attitide from someone Mr Drabble, I would expect nothing less on this forum. I have tried many aspects and series from a spectating point of view. Have never ever been able to afford real racing.

Nothing gets close to the excitement of short oval stuff.

Every time I go and watch historics I get a little frustrated as a hell of a lot of the people competing are simply plodding round! This may be fine from a competing point of view but when you are used to seeing every guy there racing it's rather dull.

Quite frankly my appetite for watching historic racing is dumbed down by this kind of thing. Sadly the rich people tend to be the focus of the media and tv shows. And this gives off a rather bad image for me.

Obviously there are exceptions and posts like mine are deliberately predatory to spice up a thread. But my thoughts are not just my own, may friends have the same opinion sadly. Not helped by the outrageous entry fees to some events these days either.

[DaveGT6]

Originally Posted by chunder

The top series will still be mainly for company directors, chairmen etc in their hired Winnebago's doing the Classic and Masters events in cars they never see or work on.

Yes I guess it probably will be. But having raced for years in grass roots I want to run at some of the events that are only accessible through these organisations - maybe I feel I've paid my dues! My racing partner and I did the Silverstone Classic (thanks Wayne for all your help!) and a couple of Masters. We are not company directors and we built our own cars - I've seen 700 hours worth of mine in build believe me!

Originally Posted by chunder

The real stuff will still exist I suspect, things like HSCC and VSCC meets which are great fun and far more entertaining.

Sure they are but what makes these the real stuff? I race with the CSCC. It's all club racing - even the elsewhere described elitist stuff - it all has its place. Let's face it apart from the big festivals it's not a spectator sport so the measure of entertainment value lies with the competitors (plural) not the spectator (singular)

Originally Posted by chunder

These top level guys don't work on their cars much, most of t id farmed out to specialists, they just turn up and drive, so that has little to do with petrol and costs, these people would race anything as it is their hobby, that's why most of them are bog slow! lol

I presume from your comments that you have raced against these guys and achieved numerous podium places? Obviously I was sandbagging to let them feel good when I raced against them.

Didn't mean this to be a "chunder" response but there were some good points raised.

As far as the number of events is concerned - yes there are loads. Every weekend there are multiple events being run so you have to pay your money and take your pick. What I find dissapointing is that when I have tried to enter the odd "elitist" event (not my expression), they are generally oversubscribed by the regulars so a chancer like me stands little chance. That is fair enough - I race with the CSCC and would be annoyed if a one off entrant got a place that excluded me. So broadly speaking I agree that the upper end of club racing is financially safe - BUT - without the cannon fodder like myself on occasion, it will potentially make them non-viable in the long term - possibly. As for the more grass roots level I believe that fewer meetings and longer races is the way to go (sorry Al). The cost of getting to a meeting outweighs the difference in fuel costs between 20 mins and 40 or 60 mins.

[Nick JM]

Gents, as a mere incompetent "bog slow" beginner, in a pretty "bog slow" car (a mix of me being a novice and the car not having a sugar daddy to pay for it to be top line) I feel rather offended about some of the sentiments being bandied around here.

The reason I race hysterics is because I love the cars and the era they represent but above all the people I have had the pleasure of meeting and befriending and the bonhommie which has been under the surface of pretty much all of the racing I have encountered both as a spectator and as a competitor.

I and my family have been watching motorsport (and historics in particular) for many years. Rather like deciding to have children there is no "right" time either to go racing or to have tin lids but I did decide to go racing, having waited over 20 years to do it, in the middle of a recession, having made pretty severe financial concessions and amidst much family discussion.

I have neither the expertise, the premises, nor the time to prepare the car myself and so I pay someone to do it for me. I cannot afford the time or the money to do extensive (or in fact any) testing and so for last year and probably for most of this year I am learning the circuits during qually and even the race itself. As long as I do not get in the way of those who are faster I do not feel that I am in any way being obstructive in what I am doing.

Most of the time I race as a day event but occasionally I blag a berth or stay in a B & B but if someone is fortunate enough to have a motorhome or a caravan then the absolute best of luck to them. Who is it for me or anyone else to dictate how people spend their money or their time?

Most of us are doing this for a hobby with probably not much chance of ever achieiving podium but for the sheer pleasure of being part of it all. The cost of attending the race whether as spectator or comeptitor is, for most of us, a significant issue but in all honesty I cannot point the finger at any particular cost and say I will not attend because it is that particular expense which will prevent me from attending. We all have a budget (both in family time and money) which usually dictates which event we do and where.

The fact that there are a large number of events for historics is surely a good thing isn't it? The more events there are the more the interest levels increase and also, let's face it, the value of our cars as well.

I forget who it was and frankly I do not care but someone on this post has mentioned that they find spectating historics disinteresting because they are slow. I commend your blatant honesty and in some cases would not disagree but if all you are interested in is speed then there are a wealth of other forms of motorsport which you may find more to your taste and without wishing to offend then maybe "historic racing today" is not the forum for you.

However, to label those who do it as being elitist because they happen to have a motorhome or because they do not prepare the cars theselves is, in all honesty, a bit chippy and pretty short sighted.

[chunder]

Guys there really is no need to get shirty, the only people replying to these comments are invariable people who race themselves! None of this is directed at individuals, I will never be able to afford to race so am not attacking people, as always on here everyone takes an observation on a racer as a personal insult!

It is merely an observation of a fan going to a few meetings over the course of many years that a far higher percentage of guys who race in older categories don't really seem to be giving the full berrys!

Now this can be for many reasons, the car might be worth a fortune, fair enough, the driver might be old and perhaps not as quick as he once was, they may aswell not be particuarly interested in going fast.

But i pay to watch racing, not a few quick guys and the rest just making up the order. This is why I watch stuff on the rather more contrived short ovals as it is better racing usually. There are some categories where the racing is very close and I gave found VSCC to be not just good but also fun and damned entertaining!

As for costs. Well when you see how much some of these cars cost it is a wonder they are competing at all! But long term I think historics are healthy.

I have no clue about build and budgets, these are just fan views. But I am positive that increased costs will affect everyone involved. When it costs almost as much to travel to meets as it does to enter then surely the clubby will siffer more than the Winnebago arrive and drivee!!

[p261brm]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I still think that misses the point. If there are too many events at a high price then fine, but that's not the question. The question is "are there too many events/series?" to which the cost issue does not apply.

This is not about personal finances but rather the state of the sport as is.

JR makes the point in another thread when he looks at some events and considers them redundant, not because of cost but because they don't do what he can do elsewhere. And that is what will make the difference not whether I or Max can afford the fuel to run a three lap sprint.

Oh and Chunder. As with crap journalists who think they know about motorsport, I don't consider myself anything other than a weekend warrior.

But there are some on this forum who can, and indeed do, perform very well against the moderns, in modern cars.

Ah yes got the message Peter, no cost involved re the subject of this thread, bit like Mr Cleese don't mention the war.
Yes there are too many series/races/events, probably be self regulatory when the entries fall below a sustainable level for what ever reason, other than cost having no bearing on the eventual outcome. Bit of a sad do for the competitor who having aquired a car, prepped, etc for a specific competition series to find the series no longer exists. OK, race in a similar series for cars of that type, only to find the regulations concerning engines etc are different, and progressing ad infinitum into the dark foreboding hole. Or how to make a small fortune out of motor racing?, and doubt we all know the answer to that question.

[Peter Mallett]

Yes,

We had a similar chat about the new Post 1976 Group 2 series. It doesn't clash with Masters per se because Touring 70's caters mainly for pre 1976 Group 2. But, surely it would be better for Masters to extend its current base and (I know it does allow later Gp2 cars) provide classes for all three periods from 1969 to 1972, 1973 to 1976 and 1977 to 1982?

Then there's CSCC which is a relaxed series of events. It attracts plenty of entrants and does what it says on the tin. Some don't like it because it is somewhat relaxed, but in and of itself it provides good entertainment for spectators and drivers. Does is steal cars from elsewhere? I don't think so.

Equipe GTS(?) is a catch all series for sports cars and GTs built up to 1970 (I think) and is the OP's chosen series. That takes cars from MGCC BCV8, Thoroughbreds and Sportscars etc. But it runs mainly with the MGCC and therefore shares the events with the other series from whence it draws its grids. Is it surplus though? Probably not. But as stated there are similar series/championships also running on the same day.

HSCC can draw cars form CSCC App K, Masters GD, any of the historic S/Seater series/championships, Sports Prototypes etc. But I beleive it complements the other series by providing a championship basis for those cars. It also seems that they and Masters cooperate on dates in order not to clash.

Overall I can't see a real problem with the number of events, but I can see drivers wanting to concentrate on certain formats which in itslef will determine what survives.

[zefarelly]

Its cheaper to enter 'elitist' events than spectate

Its cheap to race if your clever about it.

The HSCC offered us the GP support race a few years ago, I think thats what you call an elitist event? or a circus, I digress, now whether your a pit lane Patsy or a grease monkey, you don't need 8 tickets to run a saloon car for 40 minutes. Why do you think they offer 8 tickets for the frankly cheap entry fee?

as for Winnebagos, I saw more in the oval racers paddock at Lydden in July than I've seen anywhere else. THere was no shortage of tents at LeMans classic

[midgetman]

At the risk of offending Chunder and his cohorts, I've said it before and I'll say it again....I really couldn't care less if the spectator doesn't enjoy my racing. I'm dedicating my life, money, family, whatever to get out on track, it's MY game and not up to anyone on the spectator bank to tell me otherwise. And given the crowd at most events I race in, no spectators won't exactly push the entry fee to stratospheric heights.

The day I get paid to drive what the spectator enjoys is the day I start caring about 'the show'. Until then, it's me and my mates playing with our toys. I don't tell fishermen to catch more fish, do I?

It's where the big Festival events score...when the racing is boring, there's always plenty more to look at. Unlike a similarly-priced no score draw at your local Premiership ground where your 40 quid admission only gets you 90 minutes of action.

Are there too many series? Probably, but it'll sort itself out in a few years. Whether Peter likes it or not hard cash will drive the change with VFM at the forefront, whether you're super-rich or kipping in your tow car you won't enter if you're being ripped off.

BTW Chunder, last race I did I slept in the back of my Peugeot estate, long way from Winnebago.....

[chunder]

Lol Zef! I have never ever seen one in 10 years of spectating! Abd that Lydden thing you are on about is not really a meeting I think.

Fair enough points all, you have your cars, I will never pay to watch rubbish again! I have been an advocate for many years of not having spectators, especially making them pay as often the races ahve 4 cars and no racing to speak of! Limit the entry to people who work or something as there is little entertainment to speak of other than program filling!

Horses for courses I guess. I tried it, got bored and found something else! Simples

[SAMD]

The difficulty here as I see it - coming from Northern Ireland! is that the vociferous minority are heard. ie Chunder represents how many spectators? one? but what percentage of the threads?

[kipper]

Originally Posted by chunder

that Lydden thing you are on about is not really a meeting I think.

I believe that the Lydden meeting mentioned was the CTCRC event, which in addition to the MSA stuff featured European Late Models, MASCAR and UK Sprint Cars.

Although not a racer, I do have some sympathy towards Midgetman's view regarding the purpose of club racing. That said, a rationalisation of comparable series may be desirable.