Ist lap Crash in Germany/Ralf given penalty (merged threads)

[Marshal]

Haven't read the whole thread so I don't know if anyone else has mentioned it, but isn't strange that its perfectly acceptable to push a car trying to overtake you onto the grass, but a bit of jockeying for position at the start gets you a 10 place penalty on the grid for the next race

[tally-bally-ho]

It was a racing incident so no penalty is justified on sporting grounds, I think its being done to keep F1 in the spotlight until Hungary.

[Tristan]

Again, I haven't got time to read the whole thread (on a in an internet café as stupid phoneline is STILL not installed (moved to London now!! )), but...

Racing incident, yes. Penalty is rather harsh, yes. But Ralf. Mate. What were you doing exactly?? Silly billy.

[twig]

Nobody was seriously to blame, although, with the exception of lifting, Ralf was the only driver of the three main incidentees to have been able to have prevented an accident.

Not stupid racing, but maybe he should have stuck to his part of the track.

[James Elder]

As far as I could tell, it was a simple racing incident - I watched the various replays and never thought that Ralf was an obvious one to blame.

[shiny side up!]

I hope this penalty is overturned before the next GP. It is ludicrous to penalize any one of the 3 drivers involved in that incident. In a Formula where people (fans, drivers, and promoters alike) have been complaing for years that there isn't enough passing, to finally have some racing going on on the track, then start penalizing drivers for going for it all-out... asinine. What a c*ck-up...

[garcon]

Welcome James - I'm just down the road from you, mate

Having watched it a few times, I'm certain the silliest thing Ralf did was (in the words of the FIA) "admitted to paying no attention to the positions of the other cars", as this 'admission' seems to have played a large part in the stewards' decision.

I've never sat in an F1 car, but I'm guessing the view in the mirrors is no better than that in a Formula Vauxhall Junior thingy. If he looked I'm certain Ralf would've seen Rubens on his outside, but I'm equally certain he couldn't have seen Kimi - or at least he'd have had no idea that Kimi was imminently to come into play. If Kimi hadn't been there, Rubens would have had room.

The incident certainly could have been avoided if Ralf hadn't moved quite so far to take the racing line and/or if Kimi hadn't been quite so aggressive in his move on Rubens. But this is (supposed to be) racing. Ralf's move was progressive and for me perfectly reasonable - where the cars behind him go is their business. And having seen Rubens get away slowly, why the hell shouldn't Kimi make a move on him down the outside?

Racing incident, pure and simple, and I hope Ralf and Williams are successful in their appeal and that it will be heard before Hungary.

As for the decision to go with the safety car rather than red flag, a perfectly reasonable decision. My first instinct was that I would have preferred a red flag, but only so that those involved had a chance to jump in the t-car (tho' Kimi couldn't cos DC was already driving it!!). But in racing terms, there was no reason to red flag - there was a clear and safe route through at Safety Car speed, and it took less then 5 minutes to clear the debris.

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
I hope Williams wins the appeal, although I think nobody has ever won an appeal against the FIA.

No one who isn't called Ferrari anyway.

[garcon]

By the way, a very well reasoned and argued debate folks - this was bound to be a hot one, and the penalty has only made it more so, but it's good to see we can argue our different points of view without it getting out of hand...

[KC]

I think that RS noved at RB in an attempt to secure 2nd and did not know that KR was on the far side. His move cost all three, all title contenders, considerable point or the promise of them.

Because the FIA does not penalize drivers for swerving at one another on the start they have given tacit approval to do so and this can be the result. This race should have been red flagged to at least allow the title contenders to battle it out on the track instead becoming mere spectators. They have done so in the past when less cars were punted off in the first turn. Was that what the fans paid a weeks salary to see in person?

[R]

The penalty is silly. I stand by my comments yesterday that it in my view was a racing incident. I agree that Ralf "admitting to not paying attention to other cars" probably was the quote upon which they decided to hand out the penalty. So in other words, Ralf would have been better off if he hadn't been so honest...

I hope Williams win the appeal. After all, it was the start of the race, with cars all over the place, and we've seen much worse swerving *cough* TGF *cough* than this in the past, which has gone unpunished.

With JPM's penalty in Malaysia last year in mind, it wouldn't be the first time for Williams to receive an asinine penalty though.

[Hammerwerfer]

If find it rather comical that some have pointed a finger at Rubens poor start as the catalyst for this incident. Sure, Rubens was slow off the mark, and Kimi flew by him, but he had made up an awful lot of ground on Ralf, and Kimi as well had drawn damn near level with Ralf as well!

Poor start from second on the grid and swerving was not the way for Ralf to go about things at the time. With certainly one of the two fastest cars on the track under him, he could have simply motored on without worrying about blocking, especailly at the start.

It takes co-operation to get the field through the first corner on a track like Hockenheim.

[Adam43]

Indeed Kimi was nearly level with Ralf.

Here is the moment (more or less) of first impact:
.

[eatapc]

Originally posted by Hammerwerfer
If find it rather comical that some have pointed a finger at Rubens poor start as the catalyst for this incident. Sure, Rubens was slow off the mark ... but he had made up an awful lot of ground on Ralf

Very true. Ralf's Start wasn't so hot; a better launch and he wouldn't have been near Rubens.

However, there is a dreaded "accordion effect" at a first corner like Hockenheim where cars aren't up to their normal speeds when they enter the braking zone. The further back on the grid you start, the faster you'll be going at the end of the straight. So Rubens would naturally be going a little faster than Ralf at the point of the accident, while Kimi, who got a great start, was going significantly faster than the other two. The cars that qualify high always have to protect their line or risk being passed by the cars behind.

And an even more important factor: In spite of the grid spacing, those cars on Ralf's side of the grid were at a natural disadvantage. The cars on the right of the grid (2, 4, 6, etc.) are forced to lose some ground by moving over diagonally into the racing line; cars on the left (JPM, Rubens, Kimi, etc.) can just go straight; thus they have a shorter distance to the best spot to enter the corner. Bottom line: If the number 2 and 3 cars get exactly the same start, the number 3 car can probably make a pass at the first corner unless the number 2 car moves over to block.

Ralf was ahead of Rubens and moved to the racing line without swerving. No penalty. If this accident had happened on the second lap, a penalty would have been even more absurd.

I'd like to read a full transcript of the stewards' questioning of Ralf to see the context. I'd think Ralf knew where Rubens was, so when he said he wasn't paying attention to other cars, he may have meant other cars like Kimi's. (Just speculating.)

[bcobbus]

All three parties could have given a bit, but that is not in the racer mentality. As for Ralf, the penalty is a bit harsh, but understood on my part. This day in age it seems that cutting in front of other drivers is considered the norm, and that's sad. Hopefully some penalty will put and end to chopping other cars off...

[avsfan733]

the FIA have always been big on the "one move" and thats what ralf did...i am a big MS fan but i wonder what might have been the result if the stewards had only seen a race report with th last name of the driver in question

[krt917]

If I HAD to apportion blame, I would go for Ralf, but it was a racing accident really. To give him a penalty is:
a) RIDICULOUS and completely unfair;
b) Inconsistant. How can Ralf get a penalty for that when dozens of moves by other drivers, particularly Michael, go unpunished? I agree we need to sort out driving behaviour, but this accident wasn't the one to start doing so - and Ralf not the man to pick on.

Do think he was a bit silly to say he was 'paying no attention' to the other cars though.

[Redlake27]

One point, and I digress - Ralf was a lot slower off the line than JPM and slower than him in qualifying (which is unusual this year) - do we think he was heavier?

[Adam43]

Can't say either way. I think being that much slower at the start has to be put down to a slow start, rather than 10kg, or so, of fuel. And Ralf was on the bad side of the grid for starting.

Impossible to say either way. Montoya was also quick (relatively to Ralf) much earlier int he weekend (compared to say Magny Cours or Nurburgring).

[Ralf's Girl]

The penalty is far too harsh. Surely being out of the race and losing a realistic shot at the championship as a consequence is penalty enough for Ralf?

My twopence ha'penny is as follows:

* Ralf - perhaps he should have shown more awareness, but given the size of the wing mirrors on his car, is anybody seriously suggesting that he would have been able to see Raikkonen in them? He most likely knew that Barrichello was behind him, and left enough space when he moved across the track for one car in complete ignorance of the fact that there was another one on the other side of the Ferrari. Doesn't deserve a penalty, because like I said above, his championship hopes have suffered as a result. It's just another example of the FIA's inconsistent application of the rules.
And to those who are actually suggesting that Ralf was doing a "Schumi chop" - my advice to you is to watch the start of the race again, then watch the start of a race when TGF chopped across the front of another car, then come back here and tell me that it's the same thing.

* Barrichello - I'd say he's fairly blameless in the incident. Yes, he could have backed off, but if he had braked suddenly then somebody would probably have run into the back of him so the result would ultimately still have been an accident. What Barrichello needs to do is press the button marked "Launch" a bit quicker.

* Raikkonen - questionable decision to drive into a space that barely existed, but this is racing. If they'd all just driven off like they were repeating the formation lap, we'd have been whinging that even the start was boring. (and I could be wrong, but even if the race had been red-flagged, I don't think Raikkonen could have restarted - wasn't DC racing in the spare car?)

It was a racing incident, pure and simple - regrettable, yes, and to a certain extent it ruined the show for spectators because I for one would have loved to have seen the 4 championship contenders (certainly the two Williamses) fighting for the win. As it happened all we got was Montoya, then everybody else so far behind that they were in a different race.

No penalty - I know the FIA have to be seen to be taking some action, but wouldn't a fine and a slapped wrist suffice?

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally posted by Ralf's Girl
I could be wrong, but even if the race had been red-flagged, I don't think Raikkonen could have restarted - wasn't DC racing in the spare car?

DC had been in the spare car since Saturday lunchtime, as he had to use the same car for qualifying and racing due to the 2003 rules. They would have almost certainly repaired the car in that time, so it would've been available for Kimi.

That photo from Adam makes me blame Ralf a little mroe, as he did move across the track quite sharply without considering that another car might've moved up alongside Rubens, as he should've realised that his start was slow,and Rubens' must've been slow as he hadn't got past. possibly giving other drivers a chance to come through.

The still shot sugegsts that Kimi was about to get 2nd, and he can count hismelf as unlucky. Ralf didn't jsut damage his own title chances, but also Rubens' and Kimi's, so I think the penalty may well be fair.

[garcon]

Funnily enough, that still photo pushes me a little in Ralf's favour! Fair enough, Ralf had moved across from his grid position on the inside, but there was still one and a half car widths of track outside Ralf! Sadly for Rubens, he found himself in the half...

Of course one thing you can't really tell from the still is how much further left Ralf went...

[eatapc]

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
That photo from Adam makes me blame Ralf a little mroe, as he did move across the track quite sharply.... The still shot sugegsts that Kimi was about to get 2nd

That angle was the one that made Ralf look the most guilty. It's a long telephoto from the left side, which makes cars on the left seem a little more ahead than they really were. Having looked at all the angles (courtesy Lad), it does seem that Kimi had second place in the bag. He got a great start while Rubens & Ralf bogged, so staying left was the only reasonable choice.

All the drivers did the predictable thing given their grid positions and launches. None of them did anything that would normally be considered dangerous.

[Bononi]

Yeah, that looks that Ralf is guilty. But as many are saying the penalty is a little too harsh.

[429CJ]

The local tabloid today: "Niki Lauda of the horrendous crash: 'It was Kimi's fault!'" Where did that came from?