Trulli and Montoya - No Penalty (merged)

[Wrex]

Cant find this anywhere else so here goes.

We were told they were to be investigated after the race, and so far I have'nt found anything that looks like a decision.

Will either be penalised? Should either be penalised?

IMO, I think Martins assessment was on the money. 70% Montoya, 30% Trulli. However, it was just a racing incident, and I hope neither is penalised.

I want racing like that encouraged, not penalised.

Thoughts?

[Fuzzyfelt]

When it happened I immediately thought JPM would've been penalised out of contention and was so glad when he wasn't.

It really would be a shame (madness in fact) if anything that put either driver down the grid at Monza is imposed. Overtaking in these aerodynamically unstable cars is hard enough without discouraging drivers from 'having a go'.

[climb]

Yes, but JOM once again showed his overtaking phylosophy: either you let me pass easily or I'll bump you out: he surely deserves to be penalised.

[ljakse]

Originally posted by climb
Yes, but JOM once again showed his overtaking phylosophy: either you let me pass easily or I'll bump you out: he surely deserves to be penalised.

There I must disagree. As I've sad many times before, I think that a driver in front must leave enough room for 1 car width + 1 inch. I know the rules say different, but still...

There must be no punishment!!!
If Montoya gets punished how are we ever gonna see overtaking in F1??

[Don K]

Originally posted by ljakse
There I must disagree. As I've sad many times before, I think that a driver in front must leave enough room for 1 car width + 1 inch. I know the rules say different, but still...

There must be no punishment!!!
If Montoya gets punished how are we ever gonna see overtaking in F1??

Previous incidents this year seem to suggest that the driver in front is supposed enough room on the inside, but that they don't have to do leave room at the outside.


However, Williams did ask for clarification at this point (earlier this season).
And as far as I remember, none hase been given.

[climb]

Originally posted by ljakse
There I must disagree. As I've sad many times before, I think that a driver in front must leave enough room for 1 car width + 1 inch. I know the rules say different, but still...

There must be no punishment!!!
If Montoya gets punished how are we ever gonna see overtaking in F1??

Since when must a driver let room for overtaking?
I've always known that a driver should prefer to defend his position rather than being passed.

Nobody is prevented from overtaking, but everybody should be let driving and finishing their honest race.

[Redlake27]

It was a racing incident, if it is vital to apportion blame,then maybe it was 60% JPMs faulk.

He wasnt alongside, and tripped over Trullis rear wheel. However, Trulli could have given room and used his superior traction to still lead into La Source

[MacMan]

it was a racing incident, to punish either would create even more furore over the way F1 is. Just let the drivers race

[ljakse]

Originally posted by climb
Since when must a driver let room for overtaking?

Maybe you'd like to read my post again

Originally posted by ljakse
... I know the rules say different, but still...

[Draven]

I say no penelty, things like this shoud be left to the drivers, and JPM should apologise to Trulli for the outcome but not for the move. If it was left as a gentelmens agreement that after incidents like this it was up to the drivers to sort it out then I think we would have better racing.
(I'm not saying never hand out a penalty, just not when it's a well intentioned move which results in a shared blame incident)

[climb]

Originally posted by ljakse
Maybe you'd like to read my post again

Of course I had read it all

Nonetheless I can't see a point: ok you rightly express your opinion, but a penalty must be addressed or not according to rules, which, by your admission, say different

[Armco Bender]

Last race we moaned because they didn't overtake,
This race were moaning because they did overtake,
If you want overtaking theres going to be tears ocassionally,anyway drivers will hardly deliberately ram someone else these days because their going to lose their front wing if they contact another car.

[dcp2685]

Originally posted by climb
Since when must a driver let room for overtaking?
I've always known that a driver should prefer to defend his position rather than being passed.

Nobody is prevented from overtaking, but everybody should be let driving and finishing their honest race.

A driver doesn't have to leave room to be completely overtaken. If the overtaker gains position the rules state that you must leave racing room. If you notice, Montoya's left front wheel clipped the front part of Trulli Rear right therefore giving Montoya the benefit of the doubt. If you also notice that Montoya right tires were in the grass when the incident happened. Montoya had the position when they touched...Trulli left no "racing"room

Montoya had position but had no room...not even a car width because he was partially in the grass. It would have been a very different situation had montoya punted Trulli off by hitting him from behind (ala rubens in US last year).

It sucks but unfortunatley it was a racing incident.

[alfasud]

If Trulli had of left a gap, people would be starting threads about how Trulli was asleep and let others past him again.

It funny how some drivers can zig zag across the track to prevent another passing and yet here we see people say Trulli should leave enough room for 1 car width + 1 inch.

It seems that JPM went for a gap that wasn't there again (bit like Indy 2003). I'm not sure I really support giving a penalty here.... although it might take the remainder of the season to see what impact this has on Renault's WCC placings.

I'm not really concerned if JPM gets a penalty or not, but if he does he shouldn't complain about it.

[BootsOntheSide]

Remember that JPM managed the eact same move on Michael earlier in the race, havign been stuck behind him for less time. Trulli should've realised Montoya would have a go at a corner that was purposely redesigned for overtaking.

Allowing Montoya enough room didn't mean Trulli was guaranteed to lose the place - Trulli's car accelerated better, and so would've had a chance of out-dragging him to La Source, especially as Jarno would've probably had the racing line.

Racing incident, and it'd be a disgrace if a penalty was applied.

[Gt_R]

I think it's ridiculous that people suggest leaving room

Yes, if the car is alongside, you don't force him out. BUT in the situatio yesterday, JPM was clearly not able to make it stick, yet once again he just tried to force his way through a gone cause. Why should Trulli then "give room"?

It's good that we have people who tries to overtake. But to be a good overtaker meant that you are able to evaluate the risk, not simply barge your way through.

It's a pity it happened. IMO, the incident by itself doesn't warrant any penalty. It's not a big incident, but a pity that it ruined Trulli's race.

But while i agree that the incident alone doesn't warrant any penalty, i do think stewarts need to talk to JPM abit. Yesterday was his fault. and it's not the first time it happens this season. No penalty, just a nice reminder to practice some sense.

Now..what i find amusing that nobody chide Montoya was his sudden chop from out of the pits right into the way of Massa who's on the racing line. MS would have been crucified if he done that...but JPM? Massa had done something significant today..he spooked JPM

[ljakse]

Originally posted by Gt_R
Why should Trulli then "give room"?

Because Montoya was faster??? The putpose of racing is that the fastest driver win, or am I missing something??

Originally posted by Gt_R
Now..what i find amusing that nobody chide Montoya was his sudden chop from out of the pits right into the way of Massa who's on the racing line. MS would have been crucified if he done that...but JPM? Massa had done something significant today..he spooked JPM [/B]

Just shows that there is waaaaaaaay more people disliking Schumacher than Montoya. (I wonder why? )

[RWC]

There are no clear rules about such situations.
Basically those that run f1 are totally incapable of making sensible rules on passing.
They can't even decide on normal passing manouvres let alone adapting any such rule to passing in chicanes (where the direction changes are so sudden as to make rules of thumb such as "you must have your nose halfway up the inside")

[Knowlesy]

Didn't see anything wrong. Montoya made it work on Michael because TGF was awake and JPM was opportunist.

Trulli was asleep and ended up bumped out.

racing incident.

[Gt_R]

Trulli was asleep?

I don't think so. Jarno rightly has that position and had pretty much defended his position that JPM ought to have conceded and try again next time. Instead he jus keeps his foot on the trottle and expects to be given room.

It's a racing incident. But i get tired of people saying that "room" should be given to Montoya, when he isn't even in a strong enough position to warrant it. Montoya should heed his own advice, that position are not given.

[Knowlesy]

Yawn.

[BootsOntheSide]

Gt_R, judging by your logic, Trulli's thinkign was along the lines of "I've got the corner, so if he tries and move and we collide, it's his problem. I'm not giving him room, even though it doesn't automatically mean relinquishing the position, and he's clearly faster and I'm holding him up, and he's an aggressive driver who wants to get on with his race". Doesn't strike me as a productive or rational approach.

[Kicking-back]

Originally posted by Gt_R
i do think stewarts need to talk to JPM abit.

Paul and Jackie?

[climb]

Boots,
nobody can know what was Trulli's thinking, also because we're talking about a move who took place in less than half a second.

I just notice that Jarno was penalised whereas JPM wasn't.

I also notice that Kimi accomplished some fantastic overtakings without bumping anyone, which shows that bumping out the leader is not the only way to pass.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by Wrex
IMO, I think Martins assessment was on the money. 70% Montoya, 30% Trulli. However, it was just a racing incident, and I hope neither is penalised.

I thought 69:31, but yes! On the money.

I suppose it is good that they look into it, as long as they make the right decision. However looking into it might be the only thing some know about it and go away mis-informed.

Sometimes when you get 200mph machines inches apart with limited visibility and non-comprimising drivers this is going to happen. However we can introduce rules were drivers aren't allowed to get within 100ft of each other. Did you enjoy Hungary?

(just to re-iterate what has already been said, by others).