IMSA DPi Discussion

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by TF110

Toyota, Porsche, Ferrari, Aston Martin, Ford. That's 5.

Porsche, Ferrari, Aston Martin, Ford, BMW letter of intent, there's your reason for the GT Championship status.

Now try again to reason for the LMP1: Toyota, Porsche, (previously: Audi) ... where's your number four? (note: the driver's championship in WEC is open to prototype vs. GT pilots, whereas the manufacturer's championship is, per WEC (at least 2017) regulations, for P1, and for GT, as two separate titles.) I know this is OT for IMSA DPi, but TF110 was suggesting in their hopefully DPi-related argument that Audi dropping out wouldn't have an effect, and well here we are. )

[Matt]

Originally Posted by TF110

So imsa is better off? They use GT3 cars to add to their grid numbers, lmpc has it's last year, dpi is not off to a (even) good start, p2 cars are mostly European entries only doing 4 races the whole season. If you took away GTD and lmpc, their grid would be smaller than the wec. I guess they're at risk of dying as well?


Toyota, Porsche, Ferrari, Aston Martin, Ford. That's 5.

DPi in it's first year has 7 cars built to the regs.

If we're doing the whole "eliminating minor classes" thing, the WEC is left with 5 P1 cars, and 8 GTE-Pro cars.

IMSA is left with 10 P cars, and 9 GTLM cars.

I don't hate the WEC, nor want to see it fold, I'm just being realistic with whats presented in front of us.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Matt

DPi in it's first year has 7 cars built to the regs.

If we're doing the whole "eliminating minor classes" thing, the WEC is left with 5 P1 cars, and 8 GTE-Pro cars.

IMSA is left with 10 P cars, and 9 GTLM cars.

Errrrr. DPi has had 7 cars built in the first year. This is the first year of the new LMP2 regs and there's at least 20 built? And the LMP2 class isn't a minor class - in fact it's so "not minor" that it forms the backbone of the top IMSA class.

This is getting ridiculous. For all the complaints about how nobody respects IMSA and nobody likes American racing, the digs at WEC that hold no water what-so-ever are cringe. Why can't we like both without this constant penis measuring contest going on?

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Errrrr. DPi has had 7 cars built in the first year. This is the first year of the new LMP2 regs and there's at least 20 built? And the LMP2 class isn't a minor class - in fact it's so "not minor" that it forms the backbone of the top IMSA class.

This is getting ridiculous. For all the complaints about how nobody respects IMSA and nobody likes American racing, the digs at WEC that hold no water what-so-ever are cringe. Why can't we like both without this constant penis measuring contest going on?

It's the secondary P class in the WEC. Much like PC and GTD are the secondary P and GT classes in IMSA competition, the ones homeboy up there eliminated.

That's what I was referring to as "minor" classes.

[TF110]

I gotta laugh at trying to exclude lmp2 in the wec. It doesn't work that way. IMSA is copying ACO style classes except PC and GTD. So for ACO-like classes, they'd have less entries. That's not a dig at imsa. It's a reality. Comparing the wec to imsa and saying it's a dying series is laughable. DPi has 7 cars. That class is based on the 4 spec lmp2 chassis. The wec has 5 lmp1 cars and 10 lmp2 cars- which are basically what DPi is. You can get technical and say BMW shouldn't count in GTLM, as it's not an ACO legal car. That's getting too literal, just like this argument.

It all stemmed from people trying to compare their favorite series. We shouldn't play favorites. This thread is about DPi. It won't replace lmp1. I think it could be included in lmp1, and they can take out some of the 'spec' aspect of it. Let them run 830kg or whatever, let them develop the aero etc. I think the ACO/FIA will hold talks, but I don't see it being a replacement.

[Bob Baldwin]

Me thinks it is time for a Sept / Oct Joint venture IMSA / WEC at either Daytona , Sebring or the Glen . DP1 P-2 and GTLM / GTE . 10-12 hour race . No GTD 's and certainly NO PC's Would be a Great Event and let us USA fans get to see some REAL racing . Certainly don't need any P 1 P1 l send them back whence the came from

Are you FEELING it MY MAN ?

[Ephaeton]

That's what the NAEC should deliver - no GT3s, no PCs, but all the eligible (ACO spec prototype and Grand Touring) cars from all over the world (WEC, ELMS, south african endurance series, I don't care). But then again, explain to these IMSA stalwarts who now happen to be in GTD or PC why they're excluded from the series' premium events. Sigh. Reality.

[BrentJackson]

Originally Posted by Ephaeton

That's what the NAEC should deliver - no GT3s, no PCs, but all the eligible (ACO spec prototype and Grand Touring) cars from all over the world (WEC, ELMS, south african endurance series, I don't care). But then again, explain to these IMSA stalwarts who now happen to be in GTD or PC why they're excluded from the series' premium events. Sigh. Reality.

Because GT3 cars aren't premium? Somebody had better inform Stephane Ratel of that. And the amateur drivers argument is bogus, Le Mans has two classes tailored for them now. The GTD runners have as much right to be there as anybody racing an ACO-spec car. Personally, I'd have had GT3s in the 24 Hours a long time ago.

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by BrentJackson

Because GT3 cars aren't premium?

Sorta; more like because in that imaginary world where the global prototypes and Grand Tourer meet in the NAEC events there's no track space left for them Obviously totally unrealistic, just as Bob Baldwin's CAPITAL DREAMS.

[Rodger Davies]

Flipping heck Daytona would have been dull without the GT3s this year! Bit OT there though...

Hyundai rumour is interesting, would be a departure from their usual style of programme. Do they run cars in PWC at the moment?

[BrentJackson]

Originally Posted by Ephaeton

Sorta; more like because in that imaginary world where the global prototypes and Grand Tourer meet in the NAEC events there's no track space left for them Obviously totally unrealistic, just as Bob Baldwin's CAPITAL DREAMS.

Ah, I see.

Beyond that, and I will admit that this is just my view, I would say a field of very mixed GT3 cars would be a lot more interesting than a field of spec-engined almost-all-Oreca-and-Ligier LMP2s. Regardless, I'm happy with what started off with the DPi. I vividly remember the beginnings of the first DPs fourteen years ago, and this is a major, major improvement on then.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

Do they run cars in PWC at the moment?

No. They have cars in the WRC as a factory, and customer program, and had run in Formula Drift, and GRC until the end of 2014. The WRC program is currently their focus, but, the budget used to run the GRC program, shockingly, is about what it will cost to purchase a spec P2 chassis.

Now, the RN30 that was unveiled as a "concept" recently has a 2.0L turbo four cylinder, which, crazy enough would be good for a DPi project.

So, lets put this together...

1. We know Hyundai have historical interest.
2. They have an unused US motorsport budget
3. They have a a new performance brand with a "race" prototype.(easy styling cues, and brand profiling)
4. The "N" Performance brand is due to market in late 2017, or, wait for it, early 2018.
5. They have a potential partner who is known to win, and is searching for a program.

Now, These are just the points that I know exist, and I have put together to suggest that it's plausible. Others, if they are to be believed, seem to have heard scuttlebutt at Daytona about it...

If it's one thing we all know about rumours, it's either a flat out lie that's believable, or there is truth somewhere in it.

[DistortedSmile]

I was under the impression this thread was for DPI discussion.

Originally Posted by Bob Baldwin

Me thinks it is time for a Sept / Oct Joint venture IMSA / WEC at either Daytona , Sebring or the Glen . DP1 P-2 and GTLM / GTE . 10-12 hour race . No GTD 's and certainly NO PC's Would be a Great Event and let us USA fans get to see some REAL racing . Certainly don't need any P 1 P1 l send them back whence the came from

Are you FEELING it MY MAN ?

Speak for yourself.

[Bob Baldwin]

I usually do !


In am also thinking it would have great BENEFITS to both ORG's











i

[Maelochs]

Whatever this thread is ... it isn’t a WEC vs IMSA thread, I hope, because That would be pure nonsense.

It is always the sign of a weak argument or a weak mind, when, in the face of valid criticism, someone says, “Well, look at this other person/series/thing ... “

P1-H is exceedingly expensive, and might price itself out of existence. Wouldn’t be the first time that has happened (<cough> GT1 <cough>)

It happened to IndyCar about the mid-70s, it was part of what killed Can-Am .... it didn’t kill any specific class in ALMS, but on the whole car costs and operating costs went way beyond purse and advertising benefit.

I am not attacking P1-H or WEC when I say this. I am merely pointing out what a lot of sensible people realize. Not even saying it won’t work ... just that it is a tenuous proposition.

As for the people claiming that the still entirely potential P1-Ls are a sign of P1 health ... I laugh so hard I snort. The dearth of new P1-H cars tells the story. The fact that people are willing to spend big bucks to build P1-Ls and race them in the ultra-expensive WEC in a second-rate class proves that there is a Huge desire among teams to race that type of car ... which says to me, if P1-H falls, P1-L will simply move up and everything will be fine.

Burt of course, not a single car has been built yet.

As for car counts in IMSA ... they put on a really good race last weekend. To me, that is pretty much the defining fact ... if a race series puts on good races, it is a good race series. Add to that that the series is still attracting attention from new manufacturers, and is apparently growing in popularity .... people can crap all over it if they like, but it beats the pants off any other sports car series except WEC and is about fifty times better than what was there several years ago.

I see IMSA as having done what we all hoped—gotten the racing sense of ALMS and the business sense of NASCAR combined into a single series.

Sure, we would all prefer the Prototype class to be wide open, with free development and zero chassis restrictions beyond dimensions and safety regs—but as an affordable compromise and with a wide variety of engines, the class is pretty well intelligently designed.

Face it a series which can’t pay its bills is a bad series, no matter how good the last few races before it folds. And remember how many time sports care series both in Europe and North America have gone out of business because the snot-head rulesmakers wouldn’t figure out that the fans and the teams are integral parts of the equation.

I don’t want P1-H to die ... but I would prefer if P1-L was just as fast, and it never will be so long as P1-H entrants are expected to carry the series. No one is going to pay the really big bucks to get beat by some privateer in a garage-built car sponsored by Bob’s Chicken Shack.

We all remember the closing days of ALMS, when “P1” was Muscle Milk, and then there was Dyson trying not to block the P2s, and then the Dyson rent-a-car trying not to block the PCs. If Porsche really hits it in 2017 and Toyota can’t quite ...

By the way ... I am Really glad a lot of the posters here are not involved in series management. So many of you have what I might call ACO-itis—egos so big you forget that your prejudices are entirely personal, and that your prejudices are often not only not shared, but are Opposed, by the fans (remember the fans?)

Talk to people besides your drinking buddies when you go to races. You will find that fans love big, loud V8s in sleek, modern sport car chassis (and everyone loves the sound of the Gibson they like GT-Daytona, and GT3 .... the only class no one likes is PC, which is about dead anyway. Take away the prototypes, you will lose a bunch of fans. Take away GTD, you will disappoint a lot of fans, and lose about half the field.

I hate to praise IMSA, but the fact is, their current formula, with Protos, GTLM, and GTD (and temporarily PC, which I will ignore) is a real crowd-pleaser, and it pleases the teams as well.

Don’t know about the rest of you, but I am kind of enjoying the thought that the current series might actually survive for more than a few seasons.

[Dyson Mazda]

Did anyone figure out Graham Goodwin's Hyundai Le Mans entry list clue that he discussed on MWM this week?

[Dyson Mazda]

Perhaps Kubica testing the Hyundai Rally car?

http://motorsport24.pl/slide/rajdy-r...undaia-i20-r5/

[Rcz]

I hope Porsche makes a DPi car with a flat 6 turbo and everything. If Joest comes to IMSA you think it be that manufacturer?

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Rcz

I hope Porsche makes a DPi car with a flat 6 turbo and everything. If Joest comes to IMSA you think it be that manufacturer?

Sounds more like Alfa Romeo will jump in. Porsche get exposure through GTE (GTLM) and their GT3 programs. Plus they have lmp1 on the global stage. A DPi seems unlikely to me.

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by Rcz

I hope Porsche makes a DPi car with a flat 6 turbo and everything. If Joest comes to IMSA you think it be that manufacturer?

No clue, I think everyone is just tying the Dagys and Goodwin stories together

[MaskedRacer]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Whatever this thread is ... it isn’t a WEC vs IMSA thread, I hope, because That would be pure nonsense.

It is always the sign of a weak argument or a weak mind, when, in the face of valid criticism, someone says, “Well, look at this other person/series/thing ... “

P1-H is exceedingly expensive, and might price itself out of existence. Wouldn’t be the first time that has happened (<cough> GT1 <cough>)

It happened to IndyCar about the mid-70s, it was part of what killed Can-Am .... it didn’t kill any specific class in ALMS, but on the whole car costs and operating costs went way beyond purse and advertising benefit.

I am not attacking P1-H or WEC when I say this. I am merely pointing out what a lot of sensible people realize. Not even saying it won’t work ... just that it is a tenuous proposition.

As for the people claiming that the still entirely potential P1-Ls are a sign of P1 health ... I laugh so hard I snort. The dearth of new P1-H cars tells the story. The fact that people are willing to spend big bucks to build P1-Ls and race them in the ultra-expensive WEC in a second-rate class proves that there is a Huge desire among teams to race that type of car ... which says to me, if P1-H falls, P1-L will simply move up and everything will be fine.

Burt of course, not a single car has been built yet.

As for car counts in IMSA ... they put on a really good race last weekend. To me, that is pretty much the defining fact ... if a race series puts on good races, it is a good race series. Add to that that the series is still attracting attention from new manufacturers, and is apparently growing in popularity .... people can crap all over it if they like, but it beats the pants off any other sports car series except WEC and is about fifty times better than what was there several years ago.

I see IMSA as having done what we all hoped—gotten the racing sense of ALMS and the business sense of NASCAR combined into a single series.

Sure, we would all prefer the Prototype class to be wide open, with free development and zero chassis restrictions beyond dimensions and safety regs—but as an affordable compromise and with a wide variety of engines, the class is pretty well intelligently designed.

Face it a series which can’t pay its bills is a bad series, no matter how good the last few races before it folds. And remember how many time sports care series both in Europe and North America have gone out of business because the snot-head rulesmakers wouldn’t figure out that the fans and the teams are integral parts of the equation.

I don’t want P1-H to die ... but I would prefer if P1-L was just as fast, and it never will be so long as P1-H entrants are expected to carry the series. No one is going to pay the really big bucks to get beat by some privateer in a garage-built car sponsored by Bob’s Chicken Shack.

We all remember the closing days of ALMS, when “P1” was Muscle Milk, and then there was Dyson trying not to block the P2s, and then the Dyson rent-a-car trying not to block the PCs. If Porsche really hits it in 2017 and Toyota can’t quite ...

By the way ... I am Really glad a lot of the posters here are not involved in series management. So many of you have what I might call ACO-itis—egos so big you forget that your prejudices are entirely personal, and that your prejudices are often not only not shared, but are Opposed, by the fans (remember the fans?)

Talk to people besides your drinking buddies when you go to races. You will find that fans love big, loud V8s in sleek, modern sport car chassis (and everyone loves the sound of the Gibson they like GT-Daytona, and GT3 .... the only class no one likes is PC, which is about dead anyway. Take away the prototypes, you will lose a bunch of fans. Take away GTD, you will disappoint a lot of fans, and lose about half the field.

I hate to praise IMSA, but the fact is, their current formula, with Protos, GTLM, and GTD (and temporarily PC, which I will ignore) is a real crowd-pleaser, and it pleases the teams as well.

Don’t know about the rest of you, but I am kind of enjoying the thought that the current series might actually survive for more than a few seasons.

Agree. The 3 class structure going forward with GTLM, GTD, and DPI is perfect. I hope that in 2018 that we will still get at least 2 all GT races like we will have this year. Also the car number color codes should be red for DPI, green for GTLM, and blue for GTD.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

No clue, I think everyone is just tying the Dagys and Goodwin stories together

Oh really?

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Rcz

I hope Porsche makes a DPi car with a flat 6 turbo and everything. If Joest comes to IMSA you think it be that manufacturer?

IIRC Porsche went on record saying their not-interested if they can't build their own chassis from the ground up.

[Coach Ep]

Mercedes-AMG officially not looking at a DPi project - right now:

Are you still looking at a potential DPi program?

“No. We were approached about the engine. Everybody knows the 6.2-liter is a durable engine. “We never had detailed discussions about [doing a full DPi]. Never say never, but there’s nothing in the plans right now.”

http://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/mo...ar-to-the-u-s/

For what it's worth.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Mercedes-AMG officially not looking at a DPi project - right now:



http://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/mo...ar-to-the-u-s/

For what it's worth.

Lol.. they haven't been for months. I'm not laughing at you, I just think it's funny that GG and Marshall Pruett called this dead in late November or early December.