Kirby on Road America and American Racing Scene

[indycool]

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie...t_is_no81.html

[luke]

Originally Posted by indycool

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie...t_is_no81.html

[Knowlesy]

As awkwardly placed as that link is, (why here??) it is a fascinating read. Reality is cold.

[blueflagger]

Kirby was right about the local scene. Siebkens was packed on Thursday night though. But it seems that racers like to do the healthy thing the night before a race.

[norman-normal]

Originally Posted by blueflagger

Kirby was right about the local scene. Siebkens was packed on Thursday night though. But it seems that racers like to do the healthy thing the night before a race.

Agreed. Kirby seems not to have noticed that the sports car crowed averages about a decade older and richer than the champ car crowed and have always considered them selfs to be bon vivants (sports cars are as much about style as speed). The information ought to be encouraging to Champ Car fans, as indicates that they have taken to hart the recent information about the destruction to mind and body caused by rich food and alcohol

[Leighton Irwin]

What I find scary for Open Wheel racing is that many ALMS fans did not even stick around for the CC race. Good grief, they are road race fans and I expect had tickets for the whole weekend. Many of them must have been camping but if not, one more night at a hotel wouldn't break the bank.
Open wheel racing, both leagues, is in real trouble when sports car fans cannot be bothered to watch when they are already at the track!

[paul-collins]

This didn't belong in the RA Race Discussion thread, and really merited its own, so here you go.

[JohnSSC]

I don't see where this is a "funny" thing.

Curiously, when Kirby writes positively about CC, he is a respected motor journalist and not at all the Robin Miller type. Now this particular article is met with laughing emoticons and Kirby is no longer a worthy fellow to read.

I can hardly wait to see someone actually refute what he is saying here. I mean, trying to paint the sports car crowd as "older" and "consider them selfs to be bon vivants" I mean really, I know a number of people who enjoy ALMS/Rolex and they do not consider them selfs to be bon vivants or anything like that.

Actually, this was the same sort of thing we used to hear from the late, lamented Chris Pook when talking of CART's demographic compared to NASCAR's. He emphasized how much richer the CART fan demographic was than NASCAR's. I guess the NASCAR people didn't get too worried about not having people who were older and considered them selfs to be bon vivants in their demographic. It seems the advert $$ flowed righ to NASCAR's open bushel baskets any ways.

I agree with Knowlesy: reality is cold and getting colder, apparently...

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

=
Curiously, when Kirby writes positively about CC, he is a respected motor journalist and not at all the Robin Miller type. Now this particular article is met with laughing emoticons and Kirby is no longer a worthy fellow to read.

Just as curious, when Kirby has written positively about CC, he was written off as a Champ Car yes man and how one should take his words with a grain of salt.

Now when he writes something not in a positive light, he is given his own thread by one of the CC's (ten tenth areas) more critical contributors.

So it seems Kirby cant catch a break either way.

[JohnSSC]

I have never described Kirby in this way, D.R.T., so using my post to make your point is not very cricket.

Further, however you view the opinions of the person who intially posted it, the link was posted without comment. This would allow folks to make their own decision about what was written.

It would seem that the same love/hate relationship extends to R Miller. Personally, I think that there are a number of folks on both sides of the Great Divide who can no longer see the forest for the trees.

My takeaway from Kirby's column and the recent unpleasantness regarding Mr. Speed's apparent trip to NASCAR is that neither series rates enough interest that Red Bull would direct him to an open wheel ride.

Perhaps the world does not really need another open wheel spec racing series.

[paul-collins]

Originally Posted by blueflagger

Kirby was right about the local scene. Siebkens was packed on Thursday night though. But it seems that racers like to do the healthy thing the night before a race.

It appears he pitted out too early on Saturday night, also; the post-ALMS crowd was pretty lively and went well into the morning.

A comparison to historics is a bit duff, too, considering the crowds that go to historics "racing". They are much more prone to hotel-staying than the campers who go to, for instance, Mosport for the ALMS.

One wonders what happens with Siebkens being redeveloped into condos, though.

As to the gist of the article, I do have some thoughts.

First, it's disingenious to berate CC for "spec" cars and commend IRL for "looking forward" when the difference is semantics. IRL cars are spec, no matter what the rules say. It's a market solution, of course, but with no ability to update the cars (and no market support for the updates) whether a different car is allowed is meaningless if none actually run.

Champcar's ethereal schedule has been a thorn in its side for quite some time, and it's no surprise that Road America is suffering the consequences of bouncing around the calendar - just as Laguna Seca did, before it was drop-kicked off the schedule in favour of San Jose. (Which, in my strongly held opinion, is in no way a fair trade, although many would argue the point.) The truly successful Champcar events are the ones that have pretty stable dates - Long Beach, Toronto, Cleveland - and have had time to build their local fanbase. (When looking at new events, it's to be expected that initial attendance will drop off - Cleveland dropped a lot in the early 2000's but has really taken root now)

As for racing magazines and success, I'm going to call bull**** on this quote:

One of the world's top racing writers, Michael Schmidt of Auto Motor und Sport, was at Elkhart Lake to write a story about Sebastien Bourdais's move to F1. Auto Motor und Sport sells half a million copies every two weeks and is a fine example of the many European magazines which provide detailed, long stories about racing. "If you don't have any serious magazines catering to the fans, how can you keep their interest and develop them?" Schmidt asked. "You need a real magazine or two with serious reporting, but you don't have any here."

While I agree with the sentiment that magazines can't afford to underestimate their audience, I find it very hard to believe that Auto Motor und Sport outsells Autosport so widely (32,000 a week according to Andrew van de Burgt, editor of Autosport, in this post)

I'll finish my post with this, no commentary needed:

As I've written many times, if Champ Car and/or the IRL are to re-establish themselves as front-rank forms of racing a real leader must emerge and take control of American open-wheel racing. But after years and years of squabbling and a long line of weak or incompetent leaders I can't imagine any such person emerging from the ether.

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

It would seem that the same love/hate relationship extends to R Miller.

Who, it seems, has been given the CCWS push.

[KC]

I did not realize the Robin Miller had been tagged as persona non grata by Champ Car. I know he can be grating and more than little full of himself, but he has been around the open wheel scene for a long, long time and he does make valid points. The same goes for Mr. Kirby.

It never fails to amaze me at the relative levels of incompetence that are so prevalent in marketting and how and why anyone pays these people is beyond me. This is a shell game played by attorneys who make beaucoup money by not really doing anything. Common sense never prevails, the fans are never asked to find out what is needed and where the shortcomings are. So you get races that are turned into quasi-concerts with muscial acts of dubious quality, combined events that never live up to their billing and stupid movie stars strutting about the pits like they own the joint when most couldn't tell a tire from a wheelgun.

Its about racing, pure and simple for the racing fan. I want to see the cars duelling for lap after lap, not the wives in the pits twirling hair between their fingers, no tours of the motor homes, not fluff pieces what the drivers ate for breakfast or what anyone's favorite color is. I know they are human and their poop stinks just like everyone elses. Show me the race, ask the winner how he feels afterwards, ask the loser how he feels afterwards and keep things focussed on the job at hand. The races should all be on the same channel, at the same time, every damn Sunday. No taking off a month so everyone forgets you even exist and no juggling the race times around so I miss the event. How hard is this? Wonder why NASCAR became so popular? Its on almost every Sunday at nearly the same time all season. Why is the NFL and English Premier football so popular in their repsective markets, for the same reasons. Just common sense.

Make it easy on the fans and they will come.

[Fogelhund]

I took a stroll down memory lane tonight. Back to 2003 and 2004, when I was still a big fan of this racing.

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39873

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
Benjamin Franklin

I'm not sure I need to say more than Ben did.

You want cold, check out www.autoextremist.com

I have a suggestion for them: Fold it up now before it becomes a complete embarrassment altogether.

I talked with an ex-poster of this forum, a strong FTG type. She thinks this dies after 08', I wonder if it makes it that long. I'm sorry folks, but I think it is time to warm up the horizontally challenged lady. I agree with De Lorenzo as well.... time to end this chapter in motorsports.

[D.R.T.]

How is it anything like an embarrassment?

Why do you feel now is the time to pack it up ?

What has changed from say, before Kirby's article ?

[JohnSSC]

That is the problem.

Nothing really changes as it is the same goofy crap season after season (see definition of insanity above).

Embarassment? How embarassing is it that our top tier open wheel series' (and I mean both) have the problems they do? That the premier open wheel series' can't consistently get a 1.0 in the TV ratings? That Red Bull sends Scott Speed straight to NASCAR?

Don't know how long the Hobby Racers are going to continue to play Series Owner nor do I know how long the other fellow is going to continue but it becomes increasingly clear that two series are not financially viable. You can only bleed $$ for so long.

Last guy to sign a check gets to turn off the lights, I guess.

[Leighton Irwin]

It appears ALMS is outdrawing both series. I do not know how DP is stacking up but they have the Gorilla's backing.
I think we all know the answer but we aren't going to produce the solution. Unfortunately I feel TG will end up the top dog but it may be just a little poodle by that time.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

How is it anything like an embarrassment?

Why do you feel now is the time to pack it up ?

What has changed from say, before Kirby's article ?

In my opinion, this is becoming an embarrassment to what this once was, and seems to deteriorate more each year. There appears to be no planning for the future, just an attempt to tread water.

Canadians have long been strong supporters of CART/Champcar. We've had some pretty good Canadians in the series over the years, Jacques Villeneuve (and the uncle), Paul Tracy, Scott Goodyear and of course Greg Moore. Paul Tracy is clearly in the last year or two of his career, and is no longer much of a factor. This leaves Alex Tagliani, who might be a hit in Quebec, but isn't competitive enough, nor known the way the others have been. He is also reaching an age where he will begin to decline, not improve. A coming Canadian void is troublesome.

Which really points out one of the biggest problems. There appears to have been very little done to promote drivers, and create recognition in any meaningful manner. Bourdais might be a popular enemy to many, but he is known, and leaving.

Strike Bourdais and Tracy from the list, and what you have is an embarrassing list of who? I know who the drivers are, their backgrounds, etc.. but in 08' (if it happens), you potentially have the poorest lineup of all time, with zero brand recognition. When you have no manufacturers, no inbedded Ford vs. Honda (or whatever), you need something to sell. There are no saleable names at the present time.

I'm told CDW is likely gone from the series. How will they be replaced, and how does this affect Wilson?

I'm told Newman is going to be retiring. Does McDonalds go away soon too? Is there any barrier to Haas leaving?

The biggest names in the series, Newman, Tracy, Bourdais are set to be leaving in the near future. There is nothing saleable to replace them.

People can talk about Miller and Kirby... suggest they are scorned ex-employees.. and to some degree that opinion has merit. Yet, for whatever reason, CCWS has decided to alienate itself from the few PR cheerleaders it has had, and now instead of people promoting Champcars, you regularly have them tearing it apart. Perception becomes reality, and when the only voices that are left are negative, it is in no way a positive development.

Take a look around, even the biggest supporters of the series are starting to become more and more disillusioned. You find threads such as decrying that Bourdais hasn't really beaten anyone, as it is a talentless series... this on one of the most pro Champcar boards around. The mood on these most supportive of boards has clearly changed.

This group has had four years now to find a direction. There is none. They just bumble from one error, to the next. Anything that was good in 04' is slowly going away, and there isn't(hasn't been) anything to replace it. Deteriorating sponsors, deteriorating driver list, no manufacturer support, deteriorating PR and deteriorating viewership on TV. The product continues to erode, with no meaningful direction to change it.

At this point, I can't see any reason to believe things will change at all. This is a shadow of what we had in 04', which itself was a shadow of what we had in the 80's and 90's. That is embarrassing, and it appears that the only reason things will continue, will be as some sort of vanity project, that will continue to deteriorate. I hope that doesn't happen, and that the lights can be turned out before it gets more laughable, than it is already.

This feels like 03' to me, and I'm not the only one who has stated that.

[Leighton Irwin]

Nice and only too true post Brett.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

There appears to be no planning for the future, just an attempt to tread water.

In the last two years we have seen:

- A new Atlantic car and a revitalised Atlantic championship aimed at bringing more young open wheel drivers through

- A new ChampCar to replace the ageing Lola, at a heavily reduced costs to fit in with current economic climate

- A new TV partnership with ABC/ESPN, albeit a buy time

- New North American events

To me they are plans for the future. I am not saying these are the answers to all AOW problems but there are clearly some sought of plan happening here.

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Strike Bourdais and Tracy from the list

Tracy's currently in his 1st or 2nd year of a 5 year deal. He is being shown up Servia at the moment, but there is nothing to suggest he is thinking about retiring.

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

I'm told CDW is likely gone from the series. How will they be replaced, and how does this affect Wilson?

Leaving Wilson, or leaving RSports?

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

You find threads such as decrying that Bourdais hasn't really beaten anyone, as it is a talentless series... this on one of the most pro Champcar boards around. The mood on these most supportive of boards has clearly changed.

Has it? The races this season have been met with pretty supportive responses on these boards from what I have seen. If anything people are coming to accept that it isnt the 1990's anymore.

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

This is a shadow of what we had in 04'

What was better in 2004? There was Spike TV, the same amount of races, similar amount of cars.

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

which itself was a shadow of what we had in the 80's and 90's. That is embarrassing, and it appears that the only reason things will continue, will be as some sort of vanity project, that will continue to deteriorate. I hope that doesn't happen, and that the lights can be turned out before it gets more laughable, than it is already.

So do you want the lights turned out on CC or AOW all together ? As personally I dont see how not racing and not running a championship solves any of these concerns you have.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

In the last two years we have seen:

- A new Atlantic car and a revitalised Atlantic championship aimed at bringing more young open wheel drivers through

- A new ChampCar to replace the ageing Lola, at a heavily reduced costs to fit in with current economic climate

New cars are not marketable items. They have done, and will do nothing to help the saleability of the series. They were needed, but don't really help where needed the most.

- New North American events

Primarily street races. Great attendance. Having said that, the viewing at most is poor, and as such, people are "event" fans, and not so much converted CCWS fans. Because the racing isn't as good as Natural Terrain circuits, they don't make for good TV viewing and the numbers have suffered.

To me they are plans for the future. I am not saying these are the answers to all AOW problems but there are clearly some sought of plan happening here.

If that is their plan, they are doomed. Nothing saleable at all.

Tracy's currently in his 1st or 2nd year of a 5 year deal. He is being shown up Servia at the moment, but there is nothing to suggest he is thinking about retiring.

11th in the points, and no real signs of being who he was at all. He is done. If he doesn't retire, well he isn't a factor now, and losing his saleability.

Leaving Wilson, or leaving RSports?

CDM leaving CCWS

Has it? The races this season have been met with pretty supportive responses on these boards from what I have seen. If anything people are coming to accept that it isnt the 1990's anymore.

Perhaps just my perception, but that is the way it looks to me.

What was better in 2004? There was Spike TV, the same amount of races, similar amount of cars.

More saleable and known drivers, a new team of owners, who were given the opportunity to grow things, better tracks. Yes, Spike TV was a mistake.

So do you want the lights turned out on CC or AOW all together ? As personally I dont see how not racing and not running a championship solves any of these concerns you have.

I am talking about Champcars here. I am not trying to solve concerns, just stating that this has lost relevance, and doesn't make business sense.

[2112]

Wonderful points but it won`t bring new fans to the races or have them tune in.
When long time fans don`t bother to attend fly away races because you don`t trust the management to actually hold a race, it`s a problem. Let alone plan for next year if you have a job.
How about the drivers? I`ve gotten used to not knowing who will race in the series until one week before the season starts.....so it`s not about the drivers.
How about the cars?...Except for being curious on the DP-01 this year, they are all the same anyway...granted, so is the other series.

Ultimately, success is measured on how many locals decide to take a trip downtown in their city on race day?...that don`t fly. It doesn`t work for sponsors, and it won`t work for gauging how many real fans of the series are actually left.

I`ve been very supportive in the past, but maybe it`s the management that has been turning me off, I don`t know. They seem lost in some fantasy that a few hundred people at the biggest Champ Car fan site will save them.


Steady dates
Steady drivers
Steady teams

That`s when they will start to right the ship.

[norman-normal]

"This past week end drew more spectators to the track than the two series did combined when they've been held on separate week ends" Bruggenenthies.
A little more authority than an old writer who can't find his drinking buddies in his favorite Bar&Grill.

[paul-collins]

I suppose that in each case you have to consider the sources. You can trust Bruggenthies or Kirby, as is your wont.

[norman-normal]

I am wondering Way so many people who seem to be so consumed by hatred for champ Cars, spend so much time researching and posting in a forum dedicated to the object of their hatred? None of you will admit to any profit motives. It seems rather sadistic, could that be it? Do you enjoy inflicting pain on others? Give it a little thought.