Biante Series to leave Historics?

[Camaroz]

At a gathering yesterday a sometime Biante Historic Touring Car Competitor let slip that the organisers (Stubber?) were planning to take the Biante Series out of Historic Classification and set-up the V8SC support under Group 3J (Improved Production Cars). This move is intended to allow some self governance of the (class) series with respect to componentry (gearbox and reliability issues that the Historic boffins are against) and will also allow the cars to carry sponsorship.

While the 'Biante Series' cars will run under Group 3J, eligability for the Biante Series will be limited to certain type vehicles (read NC) and will not allow C of D cars to compete.

There is also talk of a control tyre but no mention of 'franchises' (yet)!!

[GTRMagic]

I had heard something similar Camaroz, with a national series to be run under the CAMS banner... as a permanent support to the 2 AVESCO series....

There was also mention of an endurance round at one stage as well.... reliving the history of the events where the cars came from perhaps??

Mr Stubber certainly spends a small fortune on his motorsport program...

[Camaroz]

GTRM, no mention of the enduro round yesterday. Re CAMS, The conversation seemed to be a bit 'anti CAMS' but this was more directed at the CAMS Historic office bearers and a 'this will fix-em up' attitude.

The Historic Touring Car Association (HTCA) are (apparently) supporting the changes and as Sue Ransom is the PR/Marketing person there, and used to work for CAMS, there may be a CAMS link. That will upset the cloth caps!!!!

You have got to admire Stubber. Not only does he know how to handle the tiller and put on a really good show but a shift to 3J will allow other competitors to build a Camaro like his, as up to this point, the Historic guys at CAMS changed the rules for Camaro's after Stubber built his car and no new Camaro could have the same freedoms!

GTRM, did you get the PM?

[rdmdog]

Well, this is an interesting plan, leaves me wondering how "closed shop" this series will be

Hope all people who want to enter read Schedule L, rule 2 from the CAMS manual.

[Camaroz]

rdmdog, the participants yesterday were doing just that. Weighing up whether to sacrifice current cars/log books to 'convert' to 3J.

If they go the 3J route, they will not be eligable for the major Historic Meetings (PI, Eastern Creek,Winton, Sandown or the new Touring Car Festival at Oran Park in January)!

Three of the five will build new cars (two said they had already started)and will leave the 'Historic' car for 'fun' days. These guys are going serious motor racing again!!!

[TCR-028]

Doggo, is this good or bad news for I.P racers ???

Camaroz, I think there are a few facts that you are not privvy to. Firstly the Stubber Camaro was initially built to a very "loose" wording of the rules, many of them verbally issued with no paperwork.

At its first Bathurst race it was simply deemed a "sports sedan". A week later it was racing at the Sandown Historic as an illegal car with fellow competitors asked to sign a petition to allow it to run in leiu of trophies and points.

The AHTCA (not HTCA as you refer to it as) is guided by Stubber as secretary and John Bryant as president. It is not the first time that it caused consternation to the states that fund it, and has had to be "pulled back into line" as it were.

If what you suggest does happen, then the AHTCA will have no funding as the states will withdraw their support. They certainly will be removed from the 5th Category and there is likely no way CAMS will approve a new class. They also cannot hold dual logbooks.

Only a handful like Stubber, have the finance and resources to go this route and many of the racers involved in the series are "historic races" first and foremost. So they will likely lose many of their own competitors. They are also members of the state clubs mostly NSW and Victoria and longterm at that.

Given that the whole category competes in the "spirit of the era" and are not real historic racing cars, what you suggest only moves them further away from being HTC's.

[Camaroz]

WK, all points taken on board.

Sorry about leaving "Australian" out (AHTCA).

The push here is, as I took the info on board, that the Biante series will separate from the 5th Catergory and have found a sort of loop-hole to allow them to offer themselves as a support catergory to V8SC, run under an existing CAMS classification that will offer some freedoms of compontery for durability and the clincher --- be able to run commercial sponsorship on the cars!

I have no angle here. If the Biante competitors support the 3J push, then they are masters of there own destiny!

As GTRM said, if CAMS are backing it, it could be the best for all Historic Touring Car Competitors. You can either be NA, NB, NC Log Book cars or if you are able to spend the bucks, convert your car to 3J. To me, we are now talking the need for either 30+ 3J Biante cars to follow the whole series or it will not work! No longer will the Biante series be able to draw from 'local' NA, NB, NC competitors to support the travelling circus through each state!

[rdmdog]

The rest of the historic community have always looked upon the NB & NC guys as rebels. Imagine having a race car, AND wanting to RACE it!!

I wonder how good a look the people who are proposing the changes have had into the 3J regs. There is something there that will hamper their lap times straight away, but then again, it will mean the rotary guys can do some better things with theuir engines

Good or bad news, I dont think it will have a large effect, unless you have a Lotus Cortina at your desposal, if you know what I mean

Maybe Dave Patterson, with a foot in each bed, will have a bit to contribute to the discussion, maybe next week when he is back from The Mountain.

Comaro Oz, maybe you would like to have a look at the ammount of cars that regularly compete in 3J at State Championship level. PLENTY more than Group N, although I do imagine that the Biante series will be restricted to cars that would otherwise be eligeable for Group N, and this may reduce the ammount of cars that will be allowed to run, hopefully not giving 3J a bad name.

In NZ they have a great series that has all sorts of cars, WRXs VS 68 BBlock Comaros. Great stuff!!

[Camaroz]

Forgot to add the following.

Apparently, this push (3J etc, etc) started when some competitors were not successful in having C of D cars (Certificate of Description cars - the actual cars that raced in the period and are allowed the freedoms of the period) ineligable for Biante races (Ross Donnelly - ex-Pete Geoghegan Mustang). The added threat and that the Stillwell's are near completion of some potentially very rapid Escorts (also C of D) and some high profile Biante competitors wern't happy that (they could be out-spent) the C of D cars may have an advantage! There is no way anyone with a genuine (improved production) 1970's racer will change their car to 3J. Problem solved(?)

[Camaroz]

rdmd, They will restrict Biante Series to the 'N' type cars

[rdmdog]

Why am I not surprised

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Camaroz
Forgot to add the following.

Apparently, this push (3J etc, etc) started when some competitors were not successful in having C of D cars (Certificate of Description cars - the actual cars that raced in the period and are allowed the freedoms of the period) ineligable for Biante races (Ross Donnelly - ex-Pete Geoghegan Mustang). The added threat and that the Stillwell's are near completion of some potentially very rapid Escorts (also C of D) and some high profile Biante competitors wern't happy that (they could be out-spent) the C of D cars may have an advantage! There is no way anyone with a genuine (improved production) 1970's racer will change their car to 3J. Problem solved(?)

Wow...don't know whether to laugh or cry...the one thing I do hope is that "historically signifcant" cars will not be "converted" to 3J as stated above....that is likely to be sacrilegious in the extreme in some cases

[TCR-028]

Originally posted by Camaroz
rdmd, They will restrict Biante Series to the 'N' type cars

Maybe they should stay as they are then. The 3J I.P cars give everyone a fair shot at racing the car they chose... If they want to be seen as I.P cars i agree with rdmdog they have the potential to make us look bad...

rmdog

Its only the Nc pushers that are considered as "rebels", Nb is very closed to the Appendix J that was current up to the end of 1964. Na and Nc are the "new breed".

camaroz

C of D cars ARE eligible to compete in Biante series events despite moves to have them excluded.

Hello - what's the point of having "Historic Touring Cars" racing if you don't actually have Historic Touring Cars?

[Camaroz]

WK, C of D cars are eligable for Biante - correct, but their Entry applications are knocked back under NCR 83!

[darren holliday]

Many of the previous posts on this thread are incorrect.

The Biante series for 2005 will be for Group N cars, period. The AHTCA does not have plans to run the Biante series in anything other than Group N for the following years.

Many of these chinese whispers started at the beginning of this year. As you may imagine it is a very expensive exercise to run a Historic Touring Car (HTC) for a full National/Biante Series. Most HTC competitors havent got endless finances and racing is a big commitment.

Add to this that most of the components on these cars are more than 30 years old and where designed in that period without the punishment of racing in mind, as such HTC's suffer more equipment failures than other categories.

Many of the competitors in the series queried about running minimal component substitutions for the Biante series. An example of this is a stronger gearbox for the Kingswood/Monaro.

These substitutions would be cheaper on the hip pocket of competitors and would also give a better spectacule for the crowd due to less retirements.

These substitutions were put to the Historic Commission and they were declined.

The AHTCA also found a sponsor to fund the 6 rounds of the series on Trackside, something I am sure everyone would like to see. To gain this extra funding a proposal was put to the Historic Commission to run advertising on the rear quarter of cars in the spirit of FIA Historic Regulations. This was also declined.

Many competitors were disappointed that these two proposals were declined. It was pointed out by the Historic Commission that these proposals would be OK on a vehicle running outside of the 5th category.

This point was given some thought however it was considered not to be appropiate for the series and the category.

A decision was made to forget about the Trackside TV deal and to approach the task of component substitution on a case by case basis (as usually occurs) to the Historic Commission.

End of Story.

[Camaroz]

Thanks for that info Darren. I had better let the chaps know that they should not proceed with the build of their 3J cars as there is no truth to the Biante Series running under 3J and the AHTCA are more than happy to work under the guidelines of the CAMS Historic Commission!!!

If the above is the case, I think you (AHTCA) have missed a great opportunity!

Late today, I also had the comment pased to me that AVESCO have bumped the Biante cars to accommodate the BRutes!

Darren, do you have any info on this?

Cheers.

[darren holliday]

There is a provisional calendar for the 2005 series. 5 of the 6 rounds are with the main series. There is a problem in the sheduling of an event due to difficulties with the programming of the main series, ie the China round. There is a possibility that one round maybe at a Konica event.

The Brutes have had no impact.

[F|sh]

i have talked to some competiors and they were thinking of joining 3J so they could exploit the freedoms given to 3J cars.

Alot of you guys are forgetting that cars built in 190 to 1972 were log booked as improved production cars

[bigalbert]

Darren, As a competitor in the current Biante series and not having missed a round this year I find it amazing that I have not heard any, or been confronted by any of my fellow competitors with any of these rumours. Thanks for putting them all to rest, It's good to hear from someone who knows what they are talking about.