Marshalling Standards in China

[chezza]

Was I the only one to be slightly worried about the marshalling standards in China at the GP??

I was disturbed to see Karthikeyan left sat there in his car after such a heavy incident, especially as the car was on fire...and then to see him get out and have to run across the track to a position of safety. I though this was shocking. Also similar with Michael Schmacher, although I think it was only an access road he seemed to walk across.

Also scanning though some of the pictures, there are some showing marshals with cameras in their hands.

[scorch]

I noticed 2 things that i thought was suspect,

1) I was very surprised to see Karthikeyan actually walk past a guy with a fire extingusher while his car burned, and looking at press reports looks like he was actually knocked out by the accident. I know it is always a marginal call when the car is in the middle of the circuit but, i thought at least some effort may have been in order.

2) about 10 marshalls trying to move the minardi on the grid formation, it was clear that the car was nearly impossible to move and it just looked stupid watching them move it. why not either snatch it, or leave it there till the pit lane closes and recover it with a breakdown.

[Stone-kicker]

The Karthikeyan incident worried me to, and Brundle commented on the lack of assistance as well. You can take a GP to these new circuits but you can't magically produce experienced marshals.

[Stoowert]

I believe Trevor Jackson was in China for this race, as a consultant - I think. You can't expect the same level of marshalling in country where motorsport is not endemic. Little acorns...
...BTW if a certain Irish marshal had been on hand he would've been out to car, put the fire out and offered the driver a cup of tea, after getting his autograph!

[chezza]

Originally Posted by Stoowert

You can't expect the same level of marshalling in country where motorsport is not endemic. Little acorns...

No you can't expect the same level...BUT...I would expect some standards and there didn't seem to be any!

We all have to go through a training process and have a minimum amount of experience to be able to marshal our grand prix. Surely there are similar requirements for the other grands prix??

[Stuart Hill]

Originally Posted by chezza

We all have to go through a training process and have a minimum amount of experience to be able to marshal our grand prix. Surely there are similar requirements for the other grands prix??

From some of the comments I have heard from experienced marshals who have attended some of the new venues over the past couple of years.....

apparently NOT !! "any volunteer is a good volunteer"

All I can add to Karthikeyan's incident is that, from my view point (ie the tv coverage) Yes, I thought that maybe someone could have been there quicker but, and it's a BIG BUT.......

just how close was the nearest marshal's post on the side of the track that he finished, as oppose to the the guys on the "other side" (whom we all saw) and who actually followed our own training guidelines......

"Do NOT cross a live track with or without an extinguisher".

Like I said, only seen the tv footage and stand to be corrected but......
Most heroes are dead, whilst good marshals survive.

[Mark Mitchell]

....copy of my post from F1 Forum........


Mark Blundell said he was concerned that it took ages for anyone to go to him after the crash.
True, but who in their right mind would put themselves in such danger when there were still cars going past at speed.
The imminent danger probably was fire!

From experience, after such an accident, Race control (Who would be watching on screens) would have put medical crews on "Standby" straight away.
A marshal getting to Karthikeyan in ten seconds would not have any benefit over a medical car getting to him in 90 seconds. (If fire had taken hold - different story)

[deadsquirrel]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

From experience, after such an accident, Race control (Who would be watching on screens) would have put medical crews on "Standby" straight away.
A marshal getting to Karthikeyan in ten seconds would not have any benefit over a medical car getting to him in 90 seconds. (If fire had taken hold - different story)

Surely if his airway's compromised, 90 seconds is a LONG time - especially if that 90 seconds is 'to arrival'.

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by deadsquirrel

Surely if his airway's compromised, 90 seconds is a LONG time - especially if that 90 seconds is 'to arrival'.

It wouldn't do him much good - but it wouldn't kill him either.

[JABWOA]

As posted in another thread: Also, in the Jordan incident, who's to say that there wasn't a marshal(s) watching the car just off camera (and behind safety) who could see that the driver was okay and just in the motions of getting out or talking on the radio? The TV footage was more a behind shot.

Also, the fire was a small lick of flame, not enough to get super worked up about unless safe to do so (IMHO).

[Hepatic]

From the comfort of my armchair;

The guys closest seemed to be the camera side of the track. They would possibly have seen the fire but would surely not cross a live track. If anyone else was on the other side, they wouldn't have seen the extensive damage and fire on the other side of the car and maybe thought it'd faired better than it had?

It wasn't unlike Ralph's crash the other year, car stuck in a seriously quick part of track. A Marshal's priority is their own safety, then their teams. Although it never seems right, i doubt we'd have done much differently until we knew the race had been neutralised....

Now the dude that ran across the track with the green flag at the start whilst the cars were moving is a different matter!

[scorch]

Some interesting comments.

As has been pointed out you are told at training days, never to cross the circuit. however i have crossed the circuit many times with a fire extinguisher, and come to think of it in a fire tender, under racing conditions. I have told many trainees not to cross the circuit but i think as a more experenced marshall i consider it acceptable if required.

Anyway i digress, the point i am trying to make is that if there is lots of visibility, to see the cars approaching, then where's the problem.
I know the FIA's approach as shown at indy last year, is that dont do anything they will get a medic there if necessary else leave the driver alone.

BUT from a marshalling point of view, it looks a lot better if 2 people had crossed, 1 with a bottle and a quick squirt to put out the flames, (i did notice on later camera shots somone had put what looks like an eniter bottle on the car) and the other to talk to the driver.

If nothing else it makes the marshalls look like they know what they are doing, and not just people dragged off the streets.

[chezza]

Yes i noticed the guy with the green flag. Now i know that in our club races there is often somebody from the startline crew who waves a flag to show that all the cars are in place so that the start sequence can commence, but this guy strolled across of the back of the grid between the last row and the chase car as the red lights were going out. That was shocking.

[ascarmarshal]

I also noticed a marshal waving a blue flag at pit exit whilst the Safety Car was out during the second caution period.

[chezza]

Yes I thought that was strange too.

[The Fat Clerk]

Tell you what, it only after seeing events like this that you realise how good we are. I was sitting dead in line with the pit lane exit & had a fab view of the first corner, the double right hader & then the left. i was only thee `Saturday & sunday & couldn't believe how bad the marshalling was. One guy in white overalls spent every second the cars weren't on the track waving a huge Portugeuse flag. When a 911 pulled off with a puncture in practice, the whole post (including the flag man) went! 4 of them were trackside with their backs to the traffic. Then 3 breakdown vehicles appeared & they tried all of them before eventually getting the car away.
What a circuit though, I've never seen anything like it. If you want to see the pictures P.M me

[JABWOA]

The blue flag at pit exit is still in the FIA rules (might still need to be a stationary one though) to warn drivers exiting that cars are on the straight. This is in conjuction with the very bright blue flashing light that does exactly the same thing.

Mr. Clerk, was there any sign of the trackside marhsals being overviewed by someone more senior? Like instructors or something? I know the Bahrain GP had experianced marshals positioned at each corner just to observe and help continue training if required (such as occured with Malaysia for the first couple of years too) but did this occur in China?

[ascarmarshal]

The blue contradicted the full course yellow. Let the following car(s) through whilst not be allowed to overtake anywhere on the circuit. That is the FIA for you

[JABWOA]

Yup, but make sure you don't cross the blend line too. (It's a warning tool, not a command - at least the original stationary flag. In Australia the blue flag waved is now a command flag, you must yield at the earliest safest oppertunity to the faster car)

[Bryan Degerlund]

I did not notice it myself. The blue flag is to warn drivers leaving the pits of cars approaching trackside (whether they take any notice is another subject!). The pit exit is only closed whilst the safety car and crocodile are actually passing, therefore at any other time this is normal procedure.

[The Fat Clerk]

No there was definately nobody over looking them, they were poor little lambs to the slaughter, I felt very sorry for them.
The guy with the blue flag at the pit exit was even worse. I was siting dead opposite him & he showed a waved blue to every car leaving the pit lane regardless if there was anything else on the track at all. This was particularlt funny for the first car out in each session.

[Mike Kelly 1]

[QUOTE=Stuart Hill]From some of the comments I have heard from experienced marshals who have attended some of the new venues over the past couple of years.....

apparently NOT !! "any volunteer is a good volunteer"

I'm off to marshal at the Dubai FIA GT meeting as part of the BARC team. It will be interesting to see how the local marshals work there. I'll let you know after i get back (hopefully!)

[deadsquirrel]

I'm off to marshal at the Dubai FIA GT meeting as part of the BARC team. It will be interesting to see how the local marshals work there. I'll let you know after i get back (hopefully!)

Do let us know - the Circuit Manager is one Chris Norman - ex Silverstone and Rockingham

[Mike Kelly 1]

So we'll see a lot of him then!!!

[EvilPumpkin]

Just a note folks - we have put solid guidelines in about discussing specific incidents with lengthy criticisms - and I don't see why that shouldn't be applied to any event, even if we don't have any marshals from that circuit. Discuss it certainly - but please be careful about the kind of statements you make and conclusions you draw - just think how you'd feel if it was you being discussed.

We may not have any Chinese marshals posting here, but I'd like to hope that they'd feel as encouraged to do so by reading the forum as marshals from the rest of the world have done.

That being said, I didn't see it anyway so can't comment - but I was under the impression that at most GPs, the marshals will normally only act if they are instructed to by Race Control. So presumably if there were delays that might be the reason?