F1: better or worse with electronics?

[StuiE]

ok, since the reintroduction of traction control in Spain last year, and all the other electronics, like fully auto gearboxes, drive-by wire, and the like, Has the racing got better with it?

Should they all be dumped, in the sake of cutting costs and making the driver to the work?

What do u think?

[calais]

i think they should be dumped but the FIA had no choice but to allow them because of some teams {all using the same engine} were interpreting the rules in there own way and using these devices

[Jukebox]

Very true...read somewhere but can't remember when, before traction control was made legal...McLaren came up with a pedal to control against oversteering when eccelerating after taking corners. That's why Mika was untouchable in those days.

Simply have to make way for new technology...and the two way telemetry was very cool indeed.

[Daytona Donald]

Originally posted by Jukebox
Very true...read somewhere but can't remember when, before traction control was made legal...McLaren came up with a pedal to control against oversteering when eccelerating after taking corners. That's why Mika was untouchable in those days.

not entirely true juke, both mclarens had a third pedal in australia '98 and they were a second faster than anybody else in qualifying, however, this pedal was "discovered" after a photograph by Darren Heath, and mclaren were told to take it off (disable it) in brazil but both drivers still went on to dominate the grid and the race! so this third pedal wasn't the reason for mikas speed!

i, however, do think that the racing has improved slightly since the re-introduction of the gizmo's, but it's still the "main guys" (tgf and jpm) doing the majority of the overtaking!

[racer69]

If there wasn't the spectre of cheating in the background, the rules prior to spain last year were perfect, except for the fact we still have pit stops.

[calais]

Originally posted by Jukebox
Very true...read somewhere but can't remember when, before traction control was made legal...McLaren came up with a pedal to control against oversteering when eccelerating after taking corners. That's why Mika was untouchable in those days.

Simply have to make way for new technology...and the two way telemetry was very cool indeed.

jukebox, i wasnt talking about mclaren.
i was talking about FIArrari

[Lee Janotta]

Electronics suck. They should all be useing sidedraft Webbers with points ignition!

[Champ69]

No real change in the racing except they crash more now, and more things to go wrong with them.

[f1manoz]

I would prefer to see less electronics in cars than there are now.

For starters, no traction control. Let the driver handle the acceleration themselves. If they can't, they shouldn't be driving!!!

Secondly, a return to stick-shifting, whether it be in the standard H format, or sequintial(?) gearboxes. But at least make the drivers take their hands off the wheel for a couple of seconds. It would increase passing because there'd be more mistakes!!!

Thirdly, instead of adding/decreasing aerodynamic efficiency to improve overtaking, how about changing the brakes to increase distance? (Although not really electronic, could be useful advice)

Fourth, none of this pits-to-car stuff. If there's something wrong with the car, bring it into the pits.

[paulzinho]

Simple solution....

ban all electronics. I dont care how much they do, ban them.

[Kex]

I'd be definitely for a return to fully manual gearboxes. Also I hate launch control, traction control, grooved tyres, some of the decisions Max Mosley has made over the years.........

QUERY: What was the last car to have a manual gearbox (gear lever). I don't know, but my guess would be Simtek in 1994. According to a book I have, Domenico Schiattarella (remember him?) retired his Simtek-Ford from the 1994 Australian Grand Prix on lap 22 because of his "gear lever".

If this was indeed the case, I'm willing to bet the Pacifics, Larrousses and possibly Minardis were still on gear levers.

[JGM]

Diesel engines with manual gear boxes. No electrics AT ALL.
They'd find it difficult to cheat then.

[Dr. Austin]

They aren't even cars anymore, for God's sake. You don't shift, you don't modulate the gas or brake, and the steering is power and probably computer assisted. In fact, I'm willing to bet that someone comes up with a (legal) stability system like the ones used on the Porsche Carrera and newer BMW models. And once that is done, why not replace the driver all together?

No wonder shifter karts are such great training for F-1 drivers. There is alot less for an F-1 driver to do. After intense shifter karts, an F-1 car has to feel like a Cadillac.

[Jukebox]

Originally posted by calais


jukebox, i wasnt talking about mclaren.
i was talking about FIArrari

What!...you think all the other teams are angels? And for your information calais..Ferrari too had been cautioned and asked to make modifications compliant to the FIA rulings. I'll paste it down here for you to read.

`Ferrari were forced to modify their suspension in time for the 2001 Austrian GP. Their previous solution was criticised by rival teams, as Ferrari had hidden the rear suspension upper wishbones in an aerodynamic covering that ca be seen in the photo below. This is legal, provided that the aspect ratio of the fairing is no greater than 3.5:1.'

No team is above the FIA calais.

[Glen]

Technology should be part of F1, no doubt whatsoever in my mind.

Whereas I'd agree that driver aids seem to detract from the skill required, the introduction of TC and LC has not done anything to impair the racing as far as I can see - in fact the racing at the moment is better than it has been for years.

It's necessary to realise that a device that relieves the driver of one burden empowers him to do more with the car - for example; Damon Hill was saying on Sky at the weekend that power steering enables loads more set-up and driving style options as compared to simply struggling with a non assisted car - that means that he can use the car in a far more sophisticated and skillful way.

Don't forget that many driver aid options, such as anti-lock brakes and stability control, are precluded simply because you aren't allowed to fit anything powered to suspension or brakes.

The suggestion that remote control cars are not far away is just poorly informed and wrong. If this were true we would see very little difference between team-mates.

[Jukebox]

Speaking of Launch Control..Benetton last year came up with a device that automatically launch the car once the lights go off unlike other cars, the drivers have to push a button for Lauch Control to be activated.

[DavyboyLT1]

As far as the hidden TC is concerned, we've discussed this in the Technical Forum:

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...threadid=19893
Hidden Traction Control...was it really a farce?

As far as electronics in F1 go, I see 2 sides to the issue:

1. As f1manoz, Dr. Austin, and others have mentioned, driver aids often remove some of the skill necessary to operate a 900 bhp, 1200 lb car. As such, the electronics tend to move the overall performance away from being that of the man, and more to that of the machine.

But on the other hand.....

2. Motorsports have, since their inception, served to pioneer many advances in the automobile. Most of our cars have entirely electronically controlled engines, ABS, etc.; and many road cars have TC, as well as stability control. Eliminating electronic driver aids in F1 would be almost a step backwards.

One final note: many motorsport-oriented engineers manage to "sell" the idea of racing to the big corporate heads by convincing them that some of the technology used in racing can filter down to the production car. While that's certainly not the only reason that the big car makers of the world get into motorsport - it certainly is part of it. And motorsport (as we know it) needs BIG money to run.

[ndp]

Originally posted by Kex
I'd be definitely for a return to fully manual gearboxes. Also I hate launch control, traction control, grooved tyres, some of the decisions Max Mosley has made over the years.........

QUERY: What was the last car to have a manual gearbox (gear lever). I don't know, but my guess would be Simtek in 1994. According to a book I have, Domenico Schiattarella (remember him?) retired his Simtek-Ford from the 1994 Australian Grand Prix on lap 22 because of his "gear lever".

If this was indeed the case, I'm willing to bet the Pacifics, Larrousses and possibly Minardis were still on gear levers.

I believe that Forti used Manual boxes throughout their life (1995- Britain 1996)

[Jonny Apex]

Get rid of all the gizmos altogether. Also get rid of fuel stops and bring back proper slick tyres - without these pathetic grooves. It is meant to be motor racing, not Scalextric. The art of 'driving' has been taken out of the 'sport' almost completely. Part of the art also used to be setting up the car to work on full, half-full and low tanks. That alone could turn a race on its head in the late stages.

I also think they should do away with high noses, plus all these extra flip-up, add-on winglets and barge boards that just keep popping up all over the place. The cars look absolutely hideous. Even more so now the front tyres are pretty much the same size as the rears.

There needs to a complete re-write of the regs and if the FIA thinks someone is playing clever with the them - ie, not competing in a sportsmanlike manner - then they should be trampled on. Straight away.

Apart from making the racing far more of a spectacle, the above would also cut costs in half over night. Motor racing should be sorted out by the guy at the controls of the car, not some computer boffin in the pitlane.

I think you'll find one team actually did have the technology to send a driverless car out on a lap around Silverstone 10 years ago. The only reason they didn't do it, probably, is because of the uproar that it would have caused.

[ljakse]

Don't know where to start with what I would ban.
First - launch control - that is the most idiotic thing ever allowed in F1 IMO
Second - sequential or automatic gearboxes - in motorcicling races (125,250,500/990) you can still see some overtaking on exiting from curves, and not just 'coz of more powerfull engines, but also due to mistakes in changing gears - not that they miss the gear, but the 'perfect' moment, or they mess up a clunch a bit.
Third - traction control - somehow, I allways thought racing is (besides the competing with other drivers) all about skill to drive veeery fast through the corners without ending in gravel.

That's it for now.

[Glen]

The idea that TC will keep you out of the gravel is just not true - ask Alex Yoong, ask Niki Lauda. Sure, it might make things simpler - but it definately doesn't make it fool proof.

Not sure where "get rid of high noses, barge boards" comes into electronics - but I'll respond to that all the same... I don't think the FIA should be compelled to alter the regulations just so some fans are comforted that the cars look like their own idea of a racing car. I am a fan, and I think the cars look better every year.

Launch control is indeed a silly idea - but it doesn't ruin the race for me one bit.

Gearbox control is no big deal if you ask me also - it simply frees the driver to do more in other departments. Actually, the same goes for almost all "driver aids"... power steering, for example, gives the talented driver and engineer many more opportunities to tune the car and handling and exploit "touch" as well as "muscle" in the driving.

I absolutely do not believe that the technology exists to make an F1 car go round without a driver. I just think that is untrue.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Glen
[B
I absolutely do not believe that the technology exists to make an F1 car go round without a driver. I just think that is untrue. [/B]

mansell in '92 is a good example of a driver using electronic aids to perfection! at the start of the '91 season, it think it's fair to say that patrase had the upper hand with mansell coming on strong in the 2nd half of the season! but, in '92, when williams went fully electronic, mansell totally dominated patrese and everyone else for that matter! it still takes a good driver to "master" all the gizmos, where as a "lesser" driver may not be able to use them to there full potential!

i found it interesting after the donnington '93 race and "that lap" by senna when he said he didn't rate it as the best of all time as he had "gizmo's" but then again, so did every other driver he over took (with the exception of the sauber maybe...not too sure!) a prime example of a fantastic driver usint the electronic to fruition!

[ljakse]

Originally posted by Glen
The idea that TC will keep you out of the gravel is just not true - ask Alex Yoong, ask Niki Lauda. Sure, it might make things simpler - but it definately doesn't make it fool proof.

Maybe you should try to find some of Alain Prost's comments on '93 Williams.
I have read the interview with him talking about TC when he sais something like 'It's absolutely amazing that you can go into a curve and then hit a full throttle without worry if you're gonna spin - even in rain'.
Sure, if you miss your braking point there's nothing gonna stop you from going into gravel, but if you do the braking right, the TC does the rest for you.

[Glen]

That's why the drivers are all closer together after TC came in - because it takes the skill out. Oh no - hang on they're not closer together... kind of scuppers that argument.

There is vastly more to it than that. Prost might have found it amazing by comparisson, but it is still quite feasible to lose the car coming out of the corner.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Glen
but it is still quite feasible to lose the car coming out of the corner.

frentzen driving the jordan at magny-cours last year spring to mind!

(glen....i'm doing too much agreeing with you just lately, well these 2 posts anyway, whats going on?