Materials

[DanJR1]

two questions

1. is methanol basically ethanol and methane?

2. i know this may sound stupid but what are the raw materials for carbon fibre?:confused:

[alfasud]

Methanol is made from fossil fuels - usually natural gas. In New Zealand many years back, there were some trials with methanol/gasoline fuel blends. I don't think it ever made it to this countries petrol pumps. Methanol is the one that tends to be used in racing - e.g. Indy cars.

Ethanol is usually derived from grain or some other bio-source.

Ethanol is the one that makes you drunk, while methanol is very toxic and will make you blind or kill you.

Ethanol can also be used for racing:
http://www.ethanol.org/racing/racing_on_ethanol.html

[imull]

They are both hydrocarbons of the same family (alcanols?:confused: ).

One has one Carbon atom, 3 Hydrogen and on one alcohol molecule CH3OH

The other is C2H5OH (I think this is ethanloc but its been 7 years now )

As for Carbon fibre - fag ash and glue

[shiny side up!]

Carbon fiber is composed of woven strands or chains of carbon (the element) and a matrix of resin (epoxy-ish).

If you aren't familiar with carbon fiber at all, perhaps a good metaphor would be a piece of woven fabric (cotton, perhaps) soaked and hardened in super glue.

[ss_collins]

fag ash and glue is about right

[imull]

It was a quote from a designer to a journo when asked what they were using for the rigging on an americas cup boat lol

fag ash and glue has always stuck in my mind from that lol

[Speck]

Methanol and Ethanol are from the alocohol group of organic compounds, at least that is what I remember from my last chemistry class, 7 years ago.

[JGM]

I always understood methanol to be an abbreviation for methyl alcohol or wood alcohol - presumably distilled from vegetable material. Have I been misunderstanding something?

[imull]

meth, eth, prop, but, pent, hex, hept(?). abbreviations for all the HC series afaik.

methyl alcohol sounds like a mix of two compounds/elements. I was taught at school that Methanol was the first (or maybe second) and simplest of the alcohol Hydro Carbons.

[BugEyed]

Methane is one carbon atom linked to a total of four Hydrogen atoms.

    H
    !
H - C - H
    !
    H

Methanol is similar but with an OH (hydroxide molecule) replacing one of the Hydrogen atoms

    H
    !
H - C - O-H
    !
    H

This gives it very different properties to Methane! It is the simplest of the "alcohol" family which all have the formula CnH(2n+1)OH (eg methanol CH3OH, ethanol C2H5OH). As mentioned above it is an "organic" compound as it contains Hydrogen and Oxygen.

Carbon Fibre is as noted above strings of carbon (which provide the strength when they are in tension) held in place by a resin. Being a bit pedantic I could add that the carbon is in its graphite form (carbon has three allotropes - graphite, diamond and C60 which all exhibit different properties).

Hope that helps.

Duncan

[DanJR1]

ok. so say a Honda RC211V produces 250hp, how much horse power would it make with ethanol instead of petrol?

Also can we make methanol as a renewable fuel?

[KC]

I am unsure for smaller displacement engines, but the rule of thumb on larger V8 engines is a performance increase of 50 to 100 horsepowewr switching from gasoline to methanol. However, the switch in and of itself does not produce it alone.

Since methanol has a much lower volatility (its ability to evaporate into a more combustible gas) it does not perform quite as well as gasoline will when merely swapped. This lower volatility allows higher compression ratios. We run 13.7:1 compression and 33 degrees of spark advance on the race boat (540ci Chevy V8) using methanol. To run gasoline at this high a compression ratio, you need a higher percentage of volatility reducing octane added to the fuel or a drastic reduction in spark advance (timing). This is needed because gasoline vapor and oxygen can spontaneously combust without a spark during the compression cycle. If this happens too early during the engine's upstroke it will damage the engine by bending a con-rod. This is called detonation and is very destructive. Adding large quantities of octane to reduce volatility or retarding the timing advance lowers horsepower and is counter-productive to what the engine is being used for. Some race fuels also add in toluene and other chemicals to help gain back the stored energy in the fuel without causing detonation. That's why the vapors from F1 cars and NASCAR stock cars smell like burning lacquer thinner.

Another added benefit to using methanol is that it burns cooler than gasoline. A cooler burn lowers operating temperatures and reduces air charge temperature and increases efficiency in the engine. The intake manifold on the engine we race regularly measures 45 to 50 degrees F and the injector itslef will form ice on it from the vaccuum decompression going on as air is drawn into it.

One drawback to alcohol is the fuel mixture becomes critical for high horsepower applications. It is very easy to get a too lean consdition and start to melt the top of the pistons and damage the exhaust valves.

[DanJR1]

what do F1 teams do with the carbon fibre parts when they have been used? can the parts be burnt down to carbon or something:confused:

[jwd]

Carbon fibre and its cousin glass fibre is a polyester resin coated mat of slippery/shiny carbon fibres. The direction of fibre lay-up in the structure is usually important. This brings in computer aided contour laying, vacuum wetting and critical-temperature curing of resins.
Carbon fibres do not stretch and have lots of tensile strength. In consequence, a resin bonded carbon structure can be moulded thinner, lighter and stiffer than the fibreglass methods of the post war racers.
The resins are subject to light degradation, just like the old days. (Some Smartie will tell me they have ways . . .)
The wafers of carbon fibre are strong because carbon will not stretch. Glass has a degree of elasticity in comparative terms.
...and then there is Boron Fibre! The Carbon stuff began with the geodesic domes of Richard Buckminster Fuller.... but it is a long story. Ask Bugeyes.

[shiny side up!]

Originally posted by DanJR1
what do F1 teams do with the carbon fibre parts when they have been used? can the parts be burnt down to carbon or something:confused:

Nope, you cannot recycle them (that I'm aware of, anyway). I reckon they destroy them via furnace or just chopping them up, and toss them in the garbage...

[avsfan733]

Originally posted by jwd
...and then there is Boron Fibre!

SHHHHH!!!!! F1 budgets are already high enough...whats next a carbon nanotube moncoque?

[thebear]

Excellent commentary.

[Homer Simpson]

Methanol and Ethanol are both alcohols; that is, they are organic molecules containing a hydroxyl (-OH) end group. The only difference is the number of carbons:

methanol CH3OH
ethanol CH3CH2OH

Methanol is quite poisonous, and can cause blindness is ingestested in large enough quantities. Ethanol, on the other hand, is the alcohol you consume at the local bar. One misconception about methanol as a racing fuel is that it is more dangerous than regular petrol...not true, as I can attest due to many incidents with it at my work (biochemistry lab). It does burn with an ivisible fire, and in the U.S. CART series you used to see drivers rolling around the grass without any apparent fire on their suits.

I've always felt that more racing series should embrace use of these renewable fuel resources (EtOH is produced via fermentation) as a way of developing technology for road car use.

[DanJR1]

does all the metal on racing cars and bikes (engines, chassis etc) get re-used and recycled so that it can be used again?:confused:

[imull]

Mistubishi, for example never sold a works Lancer. They were totally destroyed.

Some stuff that can be reused will be reused (after a thorough inspection and service for transmission components) but the majority (especially in top end motorpsort) will be scrapped due to lifing of components. Ford, for example only used the titanium uprights for one event on the works cars before X-Raying them and then making them available for customer cars.

Anything that is vaguely suspect though will be scrapped and replaced rather than repaired. I would be surprised if any teams have their scrap components melted down and re-processed as they wont be using quantities to make it viable.

I dont know about single seater tubs, but in saloons and rallying, they will do their best to re-use a shell and I think I read somewhere that Ford have only written off about 7 shells, the rest have been repairable

[DanJR1]

mayb teams send the broken parts back 2 the material producer to be re-used?

another thing: does carbon fibre use any unrenewable material?

[jwd]

For DanJR1: "....does carbon fibre use any unrenewable material?"
'Unrenewable' is a tricky word! Are you asking if any of the compounds used in the carbon fibre composite [carbon overcoated with polyester resin, essentially] use fossil sources or things we cannot grow?
The carbon composite structures are relatively insignificant in motor sport consumables. The water sport industries and aviation are far bigger users.
Put scrap carbon raceway-confetti on a fire and nothing significant remains. The technology to produce shells and tubs probably involves 3 or 4 times the volume and more of related plastics in moulding. Polyesters are chemically difficult and expensive to truly recycle and I have always considered them to be thermoset. This means they do not re-mould by reheating.

Titanium is not economic to recycle according to some engineers. Perhaps this is said in view of the small volume involved? Refractory metals are often available for free as scrap because of the difficult recycling issues. I have used titanium nuts and bolts from aviation sources after a tip-off from a vintage car enthusiast.

Tell us why you are interested.

[DanJR1]

no reason really. just interested in the area