Not Strictly Historic but.

[Vanwall]

Aha! I wish I could help. On this occasion 'twas but a modification, old fruit! Yum was originally Hmm.

PS. Betcha'll be proofing your postings with great care now.

[Darren Galpin]

Isle continyew as knorr-mall. Speylinchequers are wunduhfawl.

[Vitesse]

Originally posted by Vanwall
Betcha'll be proofing your postings with great care now.

I always do dear boy!!!

[Diabando]

Yes yes! I was referring to Agostini! (I wont forget the name now however it might be spelt!)

I have no idea whatsoever about Agostini, I just enjoy watching the GP's, and have heard Barry Sheene (sp?) and the other commentators during Doohan's term, talk of Agostini, and make comments about his "unfair advantage" during his career.

So - do you sort-of see my point about the parallel with TGF?

I think Mika will be the one that most talk about as the "gentleman" racer, in years to come

[Peter Mallett]

Nothing like a good smelling error to liven things up!!!

Angst.

I really would be sad if those "advantages" were brought to the public domain because it would just devalue the whole thing. I believe history will show the FIA to be delinquent in their handling of "The Shoe" and his more outlandish antics.

Furthermore there are times when I relish the opportunity to watch him, because there is no doubt that he is spectacular when he tries. Its rather like Senna. I disliked him intensely but boy do I still miss his presence.

[fines]

Originally posted by angst
Remember that in his F3 days he was regularly beaten by Frentzen and Wendlinger and that the Mercedes sportscar team believed Frentzen to be the better of the two. And if he's that good why is it he insists on his teammates complete subservience. Johhny Herbert recounted that after first practice at the Brazilian Grand Prix, where Johnny was very, very close to Schumacher's pace, the team informed him that from now on he would not be privvy to set-up info from Michael's car - bu that he would still have access to Johnny's info. That strikes me as someone who is not particularly confident in their ability to beat their teammate.

How do you then explain that Schumacher showed up at Sugo in 1991 to drive Johnny Herbert's spare car on a circuit he'd never seen before, and was a full second faster? I think Johnny's just seeking excuses, in fact, I looked up the 1995 Brazilian GP data and found the following:

Friday, free practice:
3rd Schumacher, 1'22.468"
8th Herbert, 1'24.246"

Friday, 1st qualifying:
6th Schumacher, 1'22.131", crash on his second flying lap
- Herbert, no time

Saturday, free practice:
1st Schumacher, 1'23.607"
11th Herbert, 1'30.625"

Saturday, 2nd qualifying:
1st Schumacher, 1'20.382"
4th Herbert, 1'20.888"

Schumacher drove a total of 45 laps, Herbert 39 laps. He wasn't keeping up from the word go.

As for Frentzen and Wendlinger regularly beating Schumacher in F3, here's a rundown of their qualifying positions in championship races:

MS 02 05 05 08 01 02 06 04 04 06 01 02
KW 18 03 15 02 02 01 03 02 02 02 02 06
HF 11 07 04 04 06 03 07 01 01 04 04 01

and their race performances:

MS 03 03 03 05 01 03 12 19 04 05 01 03
KW 26 04 01 04 04 02 04 01 03 02 07 14
HF 11 06 05 09 02 01 01 02 01 07 22 02

I think it's only fair to say Schumacher beat them also fairly regularly, and was also the most consistent of the lot!

About Agostini, yes it's true he had by far the best bike, but so had John Surtees, Gary Hocking and Mike Hailwood when they rode for MV. All of them regularly beat the lap records, and won by several laps, so none of them was really cruising. Agostini showed his value when he beat Hailwood and Jim Redman on the six-cylinder Hondas, and then in the seventies when he won races and championships for Yamaha. As a matter of fact, he even returned to MV when everyone thought the four-strokes were finished, and won the German GP in 1976 on the Nürburgring by almost a minute! That was a fabulous performance, by any standard! He also held a record for most 100-mph laps at the Isle of Man (65), before boycotting the TT from 1973 onwards. At that time, even Hailwood had only 48 100-mph laps to his credit. Agostini won 10 Tourist Trophys, and the Daytona 200 on his first attempt with a two-stroke bike! Who's saying he's "less than satisfactory"?

[Peter Mallett]

And there you have it. When you have that much ability and talent, why do you need to cheat?

[fines]

... because, for people like Schumacher, "to win" is more important than "how to win"!

[angst]

fines - I take your point about Herbert at the Brazilian GP. However the point I was making about Schumacher as compared to Frentzen and Wendlinger was exactly that they were all pretty much level on performance at that point. Schumacher beat them on occasion and they beat him on occasion, but he by no means trounced them - so how come he's suddenly seen as light years ahead of them. As I've said all along I see him as a very talented, very fast driver - but not one who is that much ahead of his rivals, I think his current reputation is a false one.

[fines]

Juan Pablo Montoya was beaten by the likes of Mark Hotchkis, Barry Waddell, Jaki Scheckter and the Boss Bros. in Barber SAAB, Jonny Kane, Martin O'Connell and Darren Manning in Formula Vauxhall, Ralph Firman Jr., Kurt Mollekens, Nicolas Minassian and Guy Smith in F3. Even if I think that this is a list of very fine drivers indeed, I think it's bloody obvious that Montoya IS light years ahed of them by now. Some drivers do improve over the years, some less so. Apart from Wendlinger's obvious plight, both he and Frentzen simply lacked in F1 terms, there's no doubt.

[angst]

His first full year in F1, as teammate to Brundle he was very good - no doubt about it - but he didn't exactly blow Brundle into the weeds (and yes, it was his first season etc.) his second season he did blow an obviously de-motivated Patrese away. But during both these seasons he won one race and ran competitively, but he was not the pace setter. 1994 arrives and TC and other electronic driver aids are outlawed - and suddenly the Benetton/Ford/ Schumacher combination has the beating of Williams(engineered by the top designer of his day, Adrian Newey), Renault and Senna. Senna was convinced that there was something untoward with the car ( and it could be said, he would wouldn't he) and then of course came that fateful day at Imola. It has been from that point forward that his reputation as a driver well ahead of his rivals has come about. But his need to have his teammates contractually subservient to him also makes me wonder whether he is as good as he is supposed to be.

[fines]

It feels strange to have to defend Michael Schumacher here, but my understanding of the current Ferrari contracts is that both Schumacher and Barrichello get equal treatment for the first three or four races, after which the team decides to focus on one. That's why Rubens was so close to MS in the beginning of the year, and is now so far.

[matje]

Concerning the comparison of MS to Frentzen and Wendlinger, who were supposedly about as quick as MS in their younger days: one of the qualities of a champion often is to organize a team around himself. MS has done that at Ferrari and Benetton, and earlier Lauda did the same at Ferrari, as did Prost at mcLaren. Maybe even Piquet at brabham is an example.

And the symbiosis between Stewart and Tyrrell is another example.

But Lauda is the best example, I think. He was quick, but not that quicker as his contemporaries. But he was a excellent tester and developer, and he had an eye for the orgainzation of the team.

And that made the difference.

mat

[angst]

matje - you've hit the nail on the head. My gripe with TGF (apart from all the dodgy stuff) is that he is regarded as some sort of Clark or Fangio figure. Lauda is a much better analogy. He is good at organising a team around him and he is a very intelligent racer and he has pace. Maybe it's just a case of modern sports (modern life) that explains why he is 'sold' as a driver light years ahead of his rivals. I'd love to have seen him in a Ferrari in, say , 1985 racing against Senna, Alboreto, Prost, Lauda et al. I think he'd have done very well - but I think his record and reputation would be more realistic.

[angst]

I've just re-checked the details and the Herbet incident came about after the first qualifying at Argentina 1995, not Brazil.
Schumacher - 1'57.056
Herbert - 1'57.063

[fines]

Ok angst, are you prepared for another disappointment?

Friday, free practice (wet):
4th Schumacher, 1'59.276" (14 laps, one spin)
18th Herbert, 2'05.229" (5, one spin)

Friday, qualifying (wet):
9th Schumacher, 1'57.056" (10, twice off-road, one spin)
10th Herbert, 1'57.068" (8, once off-road)

Saturday, free practice (dry):
1st Schumacher, 1'31.376" (21, one spin)
14th Herbert, 1'35.372" (13, accident)

Saturday, qualifying (wet):
3rd Schumacher, 1'54.272" (7)
13th Herbert, 1'57.341" (7, accident)

Herbert was only close because Schumacher had a very much disrupted first qualifying session, he was else always amongst the frontrunners. Herbert never.