M Schu the hypocrite

[BBKing]

"To BBK:As for whether Rubens beat Michael when given GOD status, it's really debatable. For you chose to ignore the fact that in Monza, Michael wasn't himself, and in Indy, Michael was leading Rubens before he let him pass, and towards the later stage, ease of to let Rubens pass and challenge Mika. Rubens may seem like he beat him on the classifications, but logic would tell you that it is somewhat 'hollow' due to circumstances."
Bottom line? Barrichello beat him.

"To BBK: until they won a WDC would you consider them a first rate driver? Hmm...for a man who did not believe the statistics of Michael would be evidence of his ability, its strange how you believe that only the statistics of winning a WDC can put a man as first class drivers. Maybe its worth noting that Good drivers don't always win WDCs but drivers who win WDC's are surely good drivers. There are some great drivers who did not win WDC...are we to say they are not first class?"
A driver like Barrichello and Irvine yes. Why? Because they drove the best car in the grid and could not do anything with it. Put a second class driver like Little bro, or Frentzen in a Ferrari and he will be more of a trouble for Schumacher. At least a little more difficul to beat Barrichello.

"Strangely you are not as attentive.. So in 2001, the Williams had a better engine than Ferrari yet Schumacher won 9 races to JPM/Ralfs combined of 4. Some people say it is because Ferrari had traction control at the start of the season... subjective call? heh...but yes...i know you are going to say how much the BMW isn't a better engine because Ferrari is more reliable. Fine..than how about qualifyings? Surely, i believe you would use the same standard when comparing Schmacher/senna in 93 and Michael/JPM in 01 and Michael.JV in 97 and Michael/Mika in 98/99 and Michael/Senna in 94? Because in all those years Michael did not have a better engine! And using YOUR above line of logic, then its safe to conclude that while Michael is not as good as Senna in 93, but better than Senna in 94, and better than Mika, JV, JPM too? Right?.......NO WAIT...again your arguments contradict because your line of logic does not give a conclusion that fits your opinion! =)"
I did not know that Ferrari used one year old BMW engines in 2001.


"Strangely, nobody answered which is more impressive... to beat a great-driver-in-an-equal-equipment or to beat a great-driver-in-a- better-equipment. Because Michael had done the later..."
When did this happen?

[SILVERS95]

Originally posted by Gt_R
TO SS95: If Michael says other teams are good, you say "he is this or that" and when Michael says his team is good etc, you people say "he is arrogant, had the best car so he's jus average driver" So what is he supposed to do? Because you people fault every thing he does..

GT_R

you really havent read what i said have you.....

I dont fault every thing he does.....far from it...i am just honest about it...I praise him up when he does well ( In early 94 he was great ! , Spa 91 , 92 WERE AMAZING , many a time ive stood at copse corner at silverstone and stood amazed at the speed he carrys through there ..so i will say it again as you obviosly didnt read it the first time when i wrote it " MICHAEL IS A FANTASTIC DRIVER " , but.....i also knock him when he races dirty , Adalaide 94....Jerez 97.....and uses the media to totally rip his oppenents apart....JEREZ 94 !!! ring any bells does it ????

ive also heard that outside F1 he is a totally polite and charming man..."you couldnt meet a nicer man" murray once said...

but i state it like it is..
let me just say this......

he doesnt need to downplay the Ferrari's performance ..

he didntt need to stop Herbert seeing his telementry......

he doesnt need to make his team mates use their practice sessions to tweak his set up.....

so why does he do it all ???....because he doesnt race fair and he appears scared to race on equal terms....now thats not the mark of a real champion is it ??

thats why i find it funny when you lot all stick up for him....

yes he is great..but he aint as perfect as you make him out to be.....good and bad in everyone mate.

and thats why im not his biggest fan.

[paulzinho]

Originally posted by neutral

Do you not think Michaels life would have been easier had he been driving the 97 williams, or 98,99 Mclaren? Jeez Michael would be a 7 times world champ if he had partnered his main rival each year!

Some (including myself) believe that any 7 time champion would have been Senna had he not died.

94-97 would have been a clean sweep for him. He himself said he wanted to drive for Ferrari at some point and he had a habit of making cars go quicker than they were designed to.

But this unfortunately is another IF.

[Mr V]

i agree with paul that a 7 time wdc would likely have been senna,however.....i think that once he got to 5 wdc's he would have called it a day as he had so much respect for fangio that he would have only wanted to equal, not beat him!

[Red]

Very interesting discussion I say. “Schumacher the hypocrite” because he’s “driving dirty”… (I found appropriate to get a little closer to the topic, sorry for that). There’s one little question mark I have though: is this some sort of a preemptive talk based on a very reliable fortune teller (the thread was started on January 3rd 2002 remember?) or a delayed reaction, because I do believe that he didn’t set foot in a Formula 1 car for some time. And will not drive one in the foreseeable future.

PS: Happy New Year

[Gt_R]

[drexel]

"Villeneuve in 2001 was certainly a 3rd class driver, probably worse than that. You and I know that Villeneuve would be, once again, among the best if he had a car that would let him be so." BBKing

Now your changing the arguement....I can now say that when Mansell faced Prost, he had a 3rd class season... but was certainly a better driver than what he showed that year.


"In Austria Barrichello had his usual Slave status and yet he had to easy of for Schumacher. Go figure."

There's a difference between outperforming your teammate and getting a lucky brake. That lucky brake was Montoya locking up the car and sending him and Michael back 6 positions. Michael caught up to Rubens and was quicker, so why shouldn't he allow him through?

"Frentzen let Villeneuve past in the last race of the season and it was not because Frentzen was faster and had to slow down. It was because Villeneuve was faster." BBKing

You just answered it


"I know Schumacher cheated in 94 and 2000 but I do not know that Senna or Prost cheated. "

2000? really? oh thats right.. it was traction control again

"but i state it like it is..
let me just say this......
he doesnt need to downplay the Ferrari's performance ..
he didntt need to stop Herbert seeing his telementry......
he doesnt need to make his team mates use their practice sessions to tweak his set up.....
so why does he do it all ???....because he doesnt race fair and he appears scared to race on equal terms....now thats not the mark of a real champion is it ??" SILVERS95


He's the only one guilty of these things?

[BBKing]

"Now your changing the arguement....I can now say that when Mansell faced Prost, he had a 3rd class season... but was certainly a better driver than what he showed that year."
I am not changing anything. If you are going to tell me that Villenueve would not do much better in a car with real chances to win the title then lets talk about soccer. Mansell had that car and Prost beat him. Don't forget that 91 and 92 Mansell was as quick as ever was.

"There's a difference between outperforming your teammate and getting a lucky brake. That lucky brake was Montoya locking up the car and sending him and Michael back 6 positions. Michael caught up to Rubens and was quicker, so why shouldn't he allow him through?"
You could argue that Schumacher was lousy in his overtaking attempt and put himself in a bad position. The thing is that Barrichello was faster than Schumacher.

"2000? really? oh thats right.. it was traction control again "
You got that one right....LOL
You could add the Bridgestone gave him a helping hand in Suzuka but that is more of a Bernie's hand in action than plain cheating.

[Gt_R]

Quote BBK: "There's a difference between outperforming your teammate and getting a lucky brake. That lucky brake was Montoya locking up the car and sending him and Michael back 6 positions. Michael caught up to Rubens and was quicker, so why shouldn't he allow him through?"
You could argue that Schumacher was lousy in his overtaking attempt and put himself in a bad position. The thing is that Barrichello was faster than Schumacher.

Hmmm...you have a funny definition for being faster... when the gap between Michael and Rubens actually closes... with Rubens in front!
by the way...clarify your point about Michael "was lousy in his....bad position"... Are you referring to his attempt on Monty?

[BBKing]

Rubens was on the tail of DC. It is logical that Schumacher closed the gap because DC was obviously slower than both Ferraris. You have to remember that DC was driving a McLaren that was not even close in performance to the Ferrari. Barrichello could not try an overtaking move on DC because he did not wanted to look silly like Schumacher did when he tried to overtook Formula Juan....LOL

"by the way...clarify your point about Michael "was lousy in his....bad position"... Are you referring to his attempt on Monty?"
YES.

Montoya was fighting his car because his tires were gone. He must have been at least 2 seconds slower than Schumacher. Look how easy was for Schumacher to get ahead of little bro.

[drexel]

"Montoya was fighting his car because his tires were gone. He must have been at least 2 seconds slower than Schumacher. Look how easy was for Schumacher to get ahead of little bro." BBKing

But little bro didn't wet his pants and end up 5 positions back (on that occasion at least).

"was lousy in his....bad position" BBKing

He's expected to make a clean pass when the guy in the front can't even take the corner cleanly

"If you are going to tell me that Villenueve would not do much better in a car with real chances to win the title then lets talk about soccer." BBKing

Tarso Marques could do better if he had a car that had a chance to win the title.
Strange thing how every team Villeneuve joins, seems to go backwards.


"Mansell had that car and Prost beat him. Don't forget that 91 and 92 Mansell was as quick as ever was." BBKing

Prost only just beat Rene Arnoux when they were teammates (82)...Rene was beaten beaten by Michele Albareto (84) Prost lost to his teammate Lauda in (84) aswell.

Does this mean Arnoux, Albereto and lauda were all as good as Senna aswell?

[Mr V]

jpm's not the sort of guy to give up a corner easily.....even if it is on tyres that have gone off/ in the zone..whatever.

he did what he's supposed to do, protect his position and wait for his tyres to come back.

mayde tgf should have waited a bit longer....or tried to pass on the inside, he was never gonna go around jpm on the outside.

[Gt_R]

BBK:"because he did not wanted to look silly like Schumacher did when he tried to overtook Formula Juan....LOL

"by the way...clarify your point about Michael "was lousy in his....bad position"... Are you referring to his attempt on Monty?"
YES."

Thanks for clarifying. And i suggest you watch the race again. You tell me Michael was lousy and bad positioning and looking silly? Before the few laps before the incident happened, i was actually pretty impressed by the way Michael and JPM were fighting on track with the 2nd Ferrari inches behind! Instead of looking silly, i think Michael had showed his controlled aggression and skills, while Juan had shown impressive defensive driving. I would put that as one of the more interesting battles this season. As for the incident, Michael was far from lousy. He did everything right... and as the commentator had said, overtaking from the outside is one of the most risky. Michael took the risk and overtaking from the outside is the only option available because Juan was taking the inside line all the time. The only problem is Juan screwed up at the braking area and was too much on the edge with his do-or-die approach (or blame the car if you want to give him the benefit of doubt). Cynics would say that Juan was too pressured that results him in going over the limit in what is clearly a struggling car. So Michael is far from to be blamed there.

Surely, such comments of him being "silly" or "lousy" which is clearly not justifiable and unfair is not helping to keep this debate meaningful.

BBK:"If you are going to tell me that Villenueve would not do much better in a car with real chances to win the title then lets talk about soccer."

Sure, Villenueve would get better results if he got a better car. But would he do better that Michael? Honestly, i don't think so.

As for your theory of "If A beats B and B beats C, then A must be better than C" i think its too absolute. It would be some sort of indication, but its too shaky an indication to conclude.

[BBKing]

Gt_R. Since you are a good friend and a fellow Schumacher fan I will make you a deal. That is also for Drexel. I will take back "silly" if you take back "lucky". Ok?

The reason that the teams that Villeneuve drove for seems to go down might have something to do with Brawn-Byrnie or Newey not being there with him. If something is clear in the last 10 years or so is that Newey and Brawn-Byrnie have dominated F1. The drivers have been basically passengers in their all-winning designs. That is with no disrespect for the drivers. It is a sad fact that the cars and the gismos are much more important than the drivers nowadays.