[WTCC] Turbo charged 1600 engines from 2011

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by stedevil

Ehhh... so you are saying equal HP engines but with higher torque and smaller chassis (= lower weight) all add up to SLOWER cars on the track? Are you familiar with the word Physics?

Can't say I thought that far, no Anyway, since I care extremely little about the technical side, going from 2 litres to 1.6 litres equalled slower in my head, and in this cost-saving craze I figured they'd cut/dumb down on various other technical bits as well when going to the smaller cars which would make them slower

So, ok, the WTCC won't actually get slower, but more or less remain as slow as it is today? Sounds awesome, really.

(And to clarify, if my tone sounds a bit 'meh', it's not aimed at you, but rather at the powers that be that keeps making racing more boring for each passing year. Well, in Europe anyway).

[NaBUru38]

It would be criminal if carmakers chose B-segment cars for the WTCC (Ibiza, Mito, Polo, Fiesta, Aveo). They are fine for second-division international championships, but not for the top class.

[duke_toaster]

I don't think it matters that much - those B-segment cars with mid-mounted Judd V10s, perhaps ...

I don't think the minimum weight or the length requirements are being changed for the 1600ccs, so I wouldn't be surprised if we keep the same base models. I'd rather they went for 2000cc turbos for several reasons, but that's a matter for a separate thread.

[Valenok]

In rally Ford switch to Fiesta, so it won't be surprise, if they run this model on track. I think, if BMW really want to participate in DTM, they must use smaller cars in WTCC, like 1-series, but 3-serie has long history in touringcar racing, and big privateers program, so Theissen can have a deal with Richards about Mini...

[juicy sushi]

This S1600 approach makes no sense to me. It continues the errors of S2000. I'd rather just a straight-forward set of alternatives, like 350hp with AWD or 400hp with RWD, with all the cars at 1250kg with minimal downforce.

[duke_toaster]

It's not S1600 though - it's S2000 cars with 1600cc engines with turbos. I would have thought that it would be better to restrict 4WD cars by aerodynamics and weight rather than power myself, but whatever works.

[Valenok]

Originally Posted by juicy sushi

I'd rather just a straight-forward set of alternatives, like 350hp with AWD or 400hp with RWD, with all the cars at 1250kg with minimal downforce.

Like SuperStars?

[juicy sushi]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

It's not S1600 though - it's S2000 cars with 1600cc engines with turbos. I would have thought that it would be better to restrict 4WD cars by aerodynamics and weight rather than power myself, but whatever works.

I'd rather the aerodynamics be rubbish for everyone, to encourage better racing. And as far as adding weight goes, I remember that being really ineffective in Speed World Challenge when that, along with boost and air restrictors were used in an attempt to slow down the RS6's being campaigned by Champion.

[juicy sushi]

Originally Posted by Valenok

Like SuperStars?

Sort of, but with a much broader variety of powertrains. The future is small-displacement turbos, but I'd like to to be available as an option for those who choose it, rather than mandatory. What I want most is no FWD and good racing. If everyone wants to race small hatchbacks, and everyone wants to rally small hatchbacks, then fine, let them run in both, but let's keep things fun. And allow someone who wants to run a full-size family car an equal opportunity (by that I mean RWD cars like the 3 series or Mercedes C-class). Let them run rally cars against M3's and C63's and the like, and let's have some mayhem and fun. Just for the love of god ditch FWD and bring back tail-sliding, door-banging racing.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by juicy sushi

And allow someone who wants to run a full-size family car an equal opportunity (by that I mean RWD cars like the 3 series or Mercedes C-class).

Well, >90% of the full-size family cars sold today is FWD, so what you mean is not in touch with todays reality.

Let them run rally cars against M3's and C63's and the like, and let's have some mayhem and fun. Just for the love of god ditch FWD and bring back tail-sliding, door-banging racing.

Are you suggesting you can't slide the tail with a FWD car? I can.

[juicy sushi]

Originally Posted by stedevil

Well, >90% of the full-size family cars sold today is FWD, so what you mean is not in touch with todays reality.

I know most are FWD, but at the same time, many have AWD versions as well. I'd rather see those raced. Also, perhaps I used the wrong phrase with family car. The gist of my point is that just because the cars are for "everyman" does not mean that the cheapest cars in the model range should be used. Something a little more aspirational (and more sporting) can be more worthwhile from a sporting point.

Are you suggesting you can't slide the tail with a FWD car? I can.

I'm not suggesting that, but FWD touring cars don't slide the tail anywhere near enough for my tastes. And if the rally cars and touring cars are the same models anyway (which seems likely under these FIA rules), with the rally cars being AWD, why not run the touring cars as AWD as well? It would be more sporting, and I think more entertaining.

[duke_toaster]

Perhaps part of the problem with the WTCC and marketing is the lack of attention it gets, partly by not having enough TV exposure?

[Valenok]

Originally Posted by juicy sushi

And if the rally cars and touring cars are the same models anyway (which seems likely under these FIA rules), with the rally cars being AWD, why not run the touring cars as AWD as well? It would be more sporting, and I think more entertaining.

S2000 rally cars have standard spec transmission, touringcars have stock-based transmission.

[juicy sushi]

Do the touring cars need to use the stock transmission? A more durable spec gearbox wouldn't hurt the show.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by juicy sushi

I know most are FWD, but at the same time, many have AWD versions as well. I'd rather see those raced. Also, perhaps I used the wrong phrase with family car. The gist of my point is that just because the cars are for "everyman" does not mean that the cheapest cars in the model range should be used. Something a little more aspirational (and more sporting) can be more worthwhile from a sporting point.

Well, FWD isn't more common on roads mainly because it would be cheaper. Also, a RWD car is not necessarily quicker than a FWD car, especially in a rally environment. But AWD excels under all conditions.

So if we truly should follow your reasoning, we should skip both F&RWD and only race AWD, since it's more highend/expensive, technically superior & performance wise advantageous. But for some reason I think you would get mighty upset if RWD cars were taken out of the equation... even if for exactly the same reasons you suggest FWD should be.

I'm not suggesting that, but FWD touring cars don't slide the tail anywhere near enough for my tastes.

Well, with current BHP, weight & tires, RWD TCs don't exactly let the backend out in each corner either on a racing circuit.

[NaBUru38]

The future of production-based touring car racing and rallying should be C-segment cars (Lancer, C4, León, Scirocco) for the top classes and B-segment cars (Fiesta, Clio, Punto, DS3) for the developing classes, that is S2000 (or equivalent turbo engines) and S1600 respectively.

When dreaming of RWD touring cars, I can only imagine of silhouette cars such as the DTM the Argentine Top Race and to some point the V8 Supercars. That's because big sedans are expensive when stock, and would get even pricer if race-prepared (I can't understand how the Superstars control costs and balance performance at the same time). It's cheaper to make look-alike bodies and purpose-built chassis.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

The future of production-based touring car racing and rallying should be C-segment cars (Lancer, C4, León, Scirocco) for the top classes and B-segment cars (Fiesta, Clio, Punto, DS3) for the developing classes, that is S2000 (or equivalent turbo engines) and S1600 respectively.

When dreaming of RWD touring cars, I can only imagine of silhouette cars such as the DTM the Argentine Top Race and to some point the V8 Supercars. That's because big sedans are expensive when stock, and would get even pricer if race-prepared (I can't understand how the Superstars control costs and balance performance at the same time). It's cheaper to make look-alike bodies and purpose-built chassis.

I don't think the costs of the base car plays that big a role towards the eventual price of the finished racecar. Silhouette or not, many of the parts will get thrown out anyway, and I know of teams who have built their cars based on chassis they found on a junkyard and I think must teams start with bodies in white nowadays instead of shopping for complete cars. So while the basecar makes a difference, it is probably somewhat insignifacant compared to the costs of all the bespoke racing parts you'll have to install.

[SAMD]

Surely the 1600 Turbo engines will have to be dumbed down big time if they are to produce less than 300bhp. If you consider the Cosworth project 1500 turbo engine was to produce something like 700bhp 15 years ago.
Also, I have to say the thought of the higher end compact cars like the C class and 3 series having the rules altered to make them competitive is mouth watering.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by SAMD

Surely the 1600 Turbo engines will have to be dumbed down big time if they are to produce less than 300bhp.

What you call dumbed down someone else might call "cost saving due to increased hours between rebuilds".

[FIRE]

BMW has started development on World Engine.

http://www.touringcartimes.com/article.php?id=4463

[awrb]

Great news about BMW. Hopefully that will convince other manufacturers to join in. I really hope this is a good move for touring cars.