[WTCC] Round 1 - Curitiba (BRA), 5th - 7th March

[Pettersson]

In the FIA papers about performance weights last year, you could read "320si" and "320si Zanardi", meaning 5-sp and seq boxes respectively. This means they treated these cars differently. In some races, Zanardi's seq E90 had -20kg while the other works cars with 5sp boxes could have +40kg. I think this is what he means with separate models. It's the same car and model, but gets treated differently by FIA.

Don't forget about the built-in weights to both FWD and RWD. Super 2000 started with H-pattern boxes in 2002, but after technical problems etc. everyone was allowed to chance to seq, if they added 30kg to their overall base weight. BMW chose to stick with the 5sp and have continued to do so. So this is still in the rules and if BMW wants to put a seq box in their cars, they will have to add those 30kg. That's the rules, and as previously mentioned, the Touring Car Bureau is now closed. The BMW's got a new RWD base weight last year or something, but I'm not really sure about that, so I'll let someone with 100% knowledge about it to comment the issue.

I don't see how they can chance gearbox without adding those 30kg. They could just do as someone just said, let the performance weights take care of the differences in laptimes. And also, remember that it's just the first race weekend, things will most likely change throughout the season, so making judgements now is like doing Touring Car Bureau's job = mixing with the weights before we see the whole picture and not on each specific track. That could mean that weights are changed in time for a track that suits BMW, then BMW will dominate and whining game from the others is on for the rest of the year.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

What part of that are you struggling to understand?

The part that involves you not understanding that it's unfair that eg BMW alone should get eg only 10kg weight added for a seq gearbox when everybody else is getting 30kg. The FWD teams in WTCC will not stand for getting ****ed in the ass the same way Halfords and Aon was in 2009 BTCC. The advantage of the seq gearbox is equal for all cars, so brand specific weight reduction because of it makes no sense what so ever.

What?? Its not a different model! Where did you dream that up from? Its the same car, just using a different gearbox option with a weight penalty. Show me where the FIA treat the same BMW with different gearboxes as different models!

WTCC sporting regulations p 20
"COMPENSATION WEIGHT
79. A compensation weight will be applied for each
vehicle model (homologation number) according to ..."

Same car with different gearboxes have different homologation numbers = different model. And it was very visible all last year with Zanardi being in his own category for compensation weight calculations. The fact that you are so forcefully questioning this shows you have 0 knowledge about both the regulations as well as what is actually happening in the series regarding weights.

Show me where the FIA treats the sequential and H pattern BMW 320si as different models?!!

Done above. I'll leave it as your own assignment to yourself find any of the many compensation weight tables from last year, here, or on TCT or FIAWTCC or in any other well informed place.

[Sodemo]

So perhaps then a 20kg reduction in the base BMW weight would be the answer?

Did BMW ever shake off that ludicrous weight gain they had given to them after they trounced everyone at Zandvoort and Magny Cours in 2007?

I remember after the first 2 or so races they were slapped with a new base weight, perhaps its time to remove that (unless that has already been done with the new weights for 2010?).

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

So perhaps then a 20kg reduction in the base BMW weight would be the answer?

Did BMW ever shake off that ludicrous weight gain they had given to them after they trounced everyone at Zandvoort and Magny Cours in 2007?

I remember after the first 2 or so races they were slapped with a new base weight, perhaps its time to remove that (unless that has already been done with the new weights for 2010?).

WTCC Sporting regulations

"List of the homologated models of cars, and their
weights as will be applied at the first event of the
2010 season and which will serve as the reference for
calculating the compensation weights described in
Article 79 of the sporting regulations:

- SEAT Léon 2.0 Tdi (A-5711) : 1170 kg
- SEAT Léon 2.0 TFSI : 1150 kg
- BMW E90 320 Si (A-5696) : 1155 kg
- BMW E90 320 Si GBS* (A-5696) : 1185 kg
- BMW E46/4FL (A-5658) : 1155 kg
- BMW E90 320 Si (A-5696 - O) : 1155 kg
- CHEVROLET Lacetti (A/N-5679) : 1150 kg
- CHEVROLET Cruze (A-5726) : 1150 kg
- LADA Priora (A-5727) : 1150 kg
"

Only Chevrolet Lacetti differ from those weights currently by an old -10kg waiver and Bennanis BMW that I presume fall in the old category (-15kg).

[Sodemo]

I think the difference is that the base weight for the FWD cars already includes the sequential box.

So if you were to homologate a 5-speed H pattern Chevy, it would be 1120kg compared to BMW 5 speed at 1155kg. That seems like a big weight penalty just for RWD.

Anyone remember what the weight penalty for BMW was in the BTCC back in the super touring era 1996 and earlier etc?

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I think the difference is that the base weight for the FWD cars already includes the sequential box.

Naturally, the same as for the seq BMW. The reason they are not all where they should be (1170kg) I presume goes back to the Curitiba BMW 1-2-3 1-2-3 weekend after BMW had made a huge fuss about how unfair it was that 1 race would now not give them a big advantage (rolling start). That put all the BMWs at 1155 (-15kg) and all the Petrol FWD got -20kg the next weekend (thus 1150kg).

[rustyfan]

They should've just mandated RWD across the board to begin with. IMHO, of course

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

They should've just mandated RWD across the board to begin with. IMHO, of course

Besides the same engine WTCC and WRC/IRC should also adopt RWD. The best rallying to watch are the RWD Ford Escorts from the late 70s/early 80s. Rally doesn't need AWD. With getting rid of FWD they could also increase power to 350~400 bhp.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by stedevil

The FWD teams in WTCC will not stand for getting *ucked in the ass the same way Halfords and Aon was in 2009 BTCC.

Try showing some respect for all users of the forum by stopping with your disgusting profanities!
Now that you've gone down to that low level I'm not going to bother with you and I'm surprised the moderators haven't warned you.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

Try showing some respect for all users of the forum by stopping with your disgusting profanities!
Now that you've gone down to that low level I'm not going to bother with you

Instead of continuously just trying to attack me in person, why don't you at least try to concentrate on discussing facts & motorsports?

[Pettersson]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Besides the same engine WTCC and WRC/IRC should also adopt RWD. The best rallying to watch are the RWD Ford Escorts from the late 70s/early 80s. Rally doesn't need AWD. With getting rid of FWD they could also increase power to 350~400 bhp.

That would be a very nice summary of what I have wanted for years.

[Icebaby]

[QUOTE=stedevil;2648013] The FWD teams in WTCC will not stand for getting ****ed in the ass the same way Halfords and Aon was in 2009 BTCC.

Can you elaborate on this as to why these teams were at a disadvantage? ,Halfords were not a team in 09 so I assume you are referring to Dynamics?

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Icebaby

Can you elaborate on this as to why these teams were at a disadvantage? ,Halfords were not a team in 09 so I assume you are referring to Dynamics?

You're correct, I meant Dynamics, sorry.

BMW teams got -20kg from the normal weight when putting in a seq gearbox in 2009. In retrospect, with the 2010 rules of forced longer 1st gear, it makes sense. But that still left the small carbuilder FWD teams of BTCC with a pretty sour deal in 2009. Instead of all their efforts developing their own car they could just have bought themselves a BMW over the counter and got -20kg as a bonus.

The Lacetti, with it's FIA homologated waivers and the factory money behind VXR still made them able to compete, but eg Dynamics and Aon never had a fair chance. The worst part is that many BTCC fans ridiculed Aon and claim Dynamics are washed out has beens from last years performance, but fail to see the connection between these teams bad performance and BMW getting a 20kg weight discount for the entire season.