[BTCC] Seat SupaCopa Cars & BTCC

[andy97]

OK, so I started this thread to get a discussion going to see what the "art of the possible" is and not to start some form of p*55ing match.

Oh well. I take on board the view that the leon is slightly too short (but the VW Golf is in BTCC this year) & that the Swindon NGTC engine is the only NG engine supposed to be allowed & there are other differences too but my view is simply that we all want to see full grids of cars racing, the Leons are not too far away from Touring Car spec, there are plenty availalble already built and Alan Gow has already proven that he can be pragmatic about letting cars in (the AON LPG Fords) so why not let in suitably modified Leon SuperCopa cars. They need a different gearbox, & might need different whheels and brakes but that seems to be about it. I dn't pretend it's simple but It would not be beyond of a privateer outfit to do that & the engine has already been proven to be very relaible and (relatively) cheap to run.

Allow the cars in for a couple of years until there are enough NGTC cars to go on their own & bob's your uncle, more cars on the grid. Is that a bad thing?

OK, I know it won't happen, but what's wrong with trying to think laterally?

[awrb]

It is a good idea for the car count andy. They wouldn't fit the new NGTC regs, and i'm not sure about S2000, but it's not unreasonable to see Gow letting them in with certain changes, effectively running to their own regs. The only problem I'd see with letting them in like this is if they are cheaper than current touring cars and have decent performance, I wouldn't want to see a field of maybe 10 of these and 10 other cars.

[Speed-King]

I think this is - in part - a question about what kind of series BTCC wants to be. One of the biggest differences between a top-of-the-line series and a lower ("club racing") series is the fact that a top series makes their own rules and cars are specifically built to match those rules, whereas in club racing you often find cars that have been run in top-of-the-line series before, but have now filtered down into the club racing scene.

I am sure BTCC could have 40 cars grids at most races if they followed the model of series like Procar here in Germany,the BCTS in Belgium or the Italian CITE (the later two run the national Seat Cup within their field), but many people feel that that's really not what a top-of-the-line series should do.

[andy97]

The following was posted on another forum by TimCrighton:

"Initial discussions with TOCA suggest that the Supercopa cars will not be elegible without work as they will require the standardised sub frames etc"

I think Tim was involved in the original UK Seat SuperCopa series. It would seem, then, that others thought the same as me & tried to make it happen. I understand the point about the cars neding the standardised sub frames etc but its a shame that some compromise and equalised performance way forward could not be worked out to get the cars on the grid for a couple of years at least, whilst NGTC cars were built up. At least the question got asked; maybe I'm not as mad as I think in trying to think laterally!!!

[snowen250]

Andy i asked Alan Gow this very question when SEAT withdrew, his answer was simply "no they cant race, they are not built to the rules."Make of that what you will.Simon

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by privateer

Can never understand why NGTC went with a 10 yearold Vauxhall unit with Swindon when you can buy the Seat engine complete with turbo etc for 6700 euro brand new sealed at 301 bhp from seat spain and a rebuild is 1400 euros at seat sport

Well, Swindon lies in Britain, and gives job opportunities to British and a "Made in Britain" stamp on things. So both from a logistic and merkantilistic POV it doesnt make sense to chose a Spanish engine manufacturer located in Spain.

Originally Posted by privateer

And the proof to this is the Arena focus turbo engine it stated in the regulations the only turbo engine in 2010 would be the NGTC...

Are you not aware that BTCC and STCC have mutual Homologation? Accepted in 1 series automatically makes your car accepted in the other.

Since STCC had Gas+Turbo cars running all of 2009, only very ignorant team owners could be surprised that it was allowed to do the same in BTCC 2010.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by stedevil

Are you not aware that BTCC and STCC have mutual Homologation? Accepted in 1 series automatically makes your car accepted in the other.

Only applies to local homolagation of S2000 cars, which the Focus already has. It doesn't necessarily apply to post-homolgation technical waivers, which is what the engine is.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Only applies to local homolagation of S2000 cars, which the Focus already has. It doesn't necessarily apply to post-homolgation technical waivers, which is what the engine is.

But if it's know to be allowed to race a Turbo+Gas Scirocco local homologated S2000 in BTCC, it doesn't make any sense that Turbo+Gas Focus should not be allowed. Or?

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by stedevil

But if it's know to be allowed to race a Turbo+Gas Scirocco local homologated S2000 in BTCC, it doesn't make any sense that Turbo+Gas Focus should not be allowed. Or?

Not really. A technical waiver on a VW Scirocco does not automatically mean the same waiver will be granted on a Ford Focus, or any other car for that matter. That is the point of a waiver.

Besides, the regulations specifically state that only an S2000 (petrol) or TOCA-badged NGTC engine will be permitted this year.

[Sodemo]

I mentioned this in another thread, so this is kinda related. But I agree, the SEATs cost what, about £30,000 new as a guess, yet are almost as quick as S2000 cars. Something is really wrong with racing in general if the cheapest solution for a touring car series ends up in the hundreds of thousands of pounds per car.

How much does it cost to fit racing brakes, racing off the shelf Hewland / X-Trac gearbox, racing suspension, roll cage and a good engine? I find it hard to believe that it can't be done for less than £100,000 which is what the NGTC rules are stating.

[FIRE]

Would the Supercopa car still cost 30k if 888, RML and Arena develop their own version? Probably not...

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Not really. A technical waiver on a VW Scirocco does not automatically mean the same waiver will be granted on a Ford Focus, or any other car for that matter. That is the point of a waiver.

But people are not complaining about a Focus chassis, are they, but about the presence of a Turbo+LPG. Anybody has been able to buy a Scirroco and race with that engine setup since 2009 in BTCC.

Besides, the regulations specifically state that only an S2000 (petrol) or TOCA-badged NGTC engine will be permitted this year.

So you are suggesting BTCC is breaking the mutual agreement with STCC?!? I would say the presence of the Turbo+LPG clearly shows the opposite...

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by stedevil

But people are not complaining about a Focus chassis, are they, but about the presence of a Turbo+LPG.

That's the point, the turbo LPG engine is NOT S2000 homologated, local or otherwise, it is a technical waiver granted only to the Focus.

So you are suggesting BTCC is breaking the mutual agreement with STCC?!? I would say the presence of the Turbo+LPG clearly shows the opposite...

I am suggesting that the BTCC is breaking it's own regulations. The Focus engine is not S2000-spec and nothing like what has been allowed in STCC.

The agreement between BTCC and STCC looks nice on paper but in fact was largely irrelevant. How many cars have actually transferred between the two series? Will STCC be allowing BTCC homolgated NGTC-spec cars next year?

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by redshoes

That's the point, the turbo LPG engine is NOT S2000 homologated, local or otherwise, it is a technical waiver granted only to the Focus.

I agree that it does sound like a strange way to do it, and I have no idea why they chose to go that way. But it doesn't change the fact that if someone would like to race a Turbo+LPG Scirroco in BTCC they can do so at the very next meeting. So the fact that there could be Turbo+LPG car on the BTCC grid 2010 should be a surprise to no one.

The Focus engine is not S2000-spec and nothing like what has been allowed in STCC.

I'll admit to knowing nothing about the specifics that differentiate the Scirocco Turbo+LPG (or the SAAB for that matter) from the Turbo+LPG Focus, but fundamentally I'm sure they are quite similar. So when the complaint is as diffuse as "no Turbo but NGTC engines", "no Turbo..." is for sure already broken by the Scirocco being eligible to race.

The agreement between BTCC and STCC looks nice on paper but in fact was largely irrelevant. How many cars have actually transferred between the two series? Will STCC be allowing BTCC homolgated NGTC-spec cars next year?

I presume the exchange agreement refers to S2000 class cars. If STCC next year change to race monster trucks, I'm quite sure they also won't be covered by the same mutual agreement.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Would the Supercopa car still cost 30k if 888, RML and Arena develop their own version? Probably not...

Perhaps not no. I wouldn't honestly know how you could keep those costs and let a team develop their own version. I certainly wouldn't say its impossible to approach those kind of targets.

[privateer]

Actual cost of a brand new supacopa is 63,000 euro and the engine would easily do the season but that would be to cheap for the powers to be at BTCC.

[andy97]

And SupaCopa cars are available second hand in the UK from between £30-50K

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by privateer

Actual cost of a brand new supacopa is 63,000 euro and the engine would easily do the season but that would be to cheap for the powers to be at BTCC.

Don't believe this. Or gets Gow 10% of every car that has been built?

There's a difference between a single spec cup series and a open series like BTCC.