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15 Mar 2011, 13:46 (Ref:2846173) | #1 | ||
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Stoner, Rossi and the "Crap" Ducati
Looking at that picture made me think, you do have to give Rossi/Burgess credit for moving to crap teams and completely turning them around (and so far trying it more than once). I'd struggle to think of anyone else who's attempted that and succeeded (to the extent of multiple championships) in the past 40 years. Maybe if Rossi had been around in the early 90's Cagiva would still be in it.
* Posts Moved to Separate Thread * JH Last edited by jhansen; 18 Mar 2011 at 01:13. |
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15 Mar 2011, 18:22 (Ref:2846364) | #2 | ||
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To be honest the Cagiva thing was turned around anyway/
First by Mamola who turned the bike into a half decent thing but was hampered by rubbish Pirelli tyres And then by Lawson and Haslam who tested the hell out ot it and forced the Castiglioni's to spedn money in the right places instead of just riders and posh trucks. The 91 and 90 bikes were very, very good. 92 bike was suffering with Dunlop tyres but once they got the big bang was very good. And I have to think if someone like Beattie, Schwantz or someone had been alongside Chandler in 93 the bike would have won more races. Kocinski was it's bnets rider really, but could not develop a bike to save his life! As for 2010, Honda will win most of the races, Lorenzo or Spies will win when its tight and twisty and Rossi will get podiums, maybe the odd win. No one else might as well not turn up! |
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16 Mar 2011, 10:22 (Ref:2846686) | #3 | ||
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16 Mar 2011, 11:23 (Ref:2846716) | #4 | ||
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Yes.
After studying the stats for Ducati over the last 4 years I have come to two conclusions. 1. The bike was a lemon in 2007 and has gotten worse every year since. 2. Casey Stoner is a very, very special rider. CS27 Wins 23. Podiums 19. The other 17 Ducati riders combined Wins 1. Podiums 0. |
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16 Mar 2011, 15:35 (Ref:2846869) | #5 | |||
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I wouldn't call the bike a lemon in 2007, but certainly aside from a horsepower advantage for the first half of the season, it wasn't the best bike. Bridgestone helped a bit as well. But certainly, something about the 800cc Ducati range reguires a very particular stile that only Stoner could unlock. He is indeed a special talent. |
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16 Mar 2011, 15:52 (Ref:2846883) | #6 | ||
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Mate if you think the 07 Duke was a lemon then perhaps you should have tried riding a Kawasaki, Suzuki or somehting.
That bike was a total rocketship of the like never seen before in GP racing, they did their sums very welll with aero, fuel and stuff. And Stoner is a proper talent, been saying ot now for 2 tears, he gets on a Honda and suddenly people agree!! lol |
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16 Mar 2011, 16:14 (Ref:2846889) | #7 | |||
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The 07 bike was a rocketship but all the power in the world is of no use if noone can ride the bike. The 07 success was a testament to Stoner's talent rather than of the bike itself. Take Stoner out of the equation the 07 bike was a lemon, put Stoner back into the equation it was a championship winner. Between 07 and 10 Stoner has been able to win with every variation of the Ducati, trellis frame and CF frame. All 17 other riders who have attempted to tame the beast have failed miserably with the possible exception of Hayden who has gotten closest but still hasn't podiumed. 2011 is following the same trend. Even VR/JB have yet to be able find a way to make the bike rideable by the masses. Judging the 07 bike in 07 I also thought the bike was a star, but with the aid of stats from 4 800cc seasons now I have changed my opinion. So I stand by my statements all Ducatis from 07 to 10 (and possibly 11) were lemons and Casey Stoner is a mega talent. |
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16 Mar 2011, 17:18 (Ref:2846936) | #8 | ||||
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Pedrosa is Honda's boy with one lucky win for Dovi. So is the Honda a dog and Dani is a mega talent? Yamaha had two aliens, thus more wins by multiple riders. Look at who has won races in the 800cc era other than rain type races, and you get the four aliens. And yes, all four are mega talented. |
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16 Mar 2011, 18:03 (Ref:2846973) | #9 | |||
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Yes Rossi is very special, yes Pedrosa is very special, yes Lorenzo is very special, yes Stoner is very special. I am not ranking Stoner against the other aliens, that will be determined in time. I am comparing Stoner's performance over the last 4 years AGAINST THE OTHER DUCATI RIDERS ONLY to back my opinion that the Ducati was and is a lemon. The stats show that the average difference in lap times between the Hondas (factory and satellite) is "relatively" small. The average difference in lap times between the Yamahas (factory and satellite) is "relatively" small. On the other hand by comparison the average difference in lap times between the factory bike of Stoner and the 2nd factory bike and satellites is huge. Hence my opinion that the Ducati has been a lemon flattered by a very special rider. Maybe one of the other very special riders might have been able to do the same, we'll never know. Maybe Rossi will be able to do it this year, we'll see. What can't be denied is that no other rider on the Ducati to date has been able to get close to the results Stoner has. To me a bike that can only be ridden successfully by one rider, any rider, can not be classed as a good race bike. Without Stoner the Ducati has been a midpack to tailend bike only. Nicky has been able to approach the pointy end on occasions but not with any consistency. The bike has been a lemon. And indications so far are that the 2011 bike is worse than the 2010 bike which was the worst so far. They may improve it but it hasn't been and won't be an "80 second fix". |
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16 Mar 2011, 19:29 (Ref:2847020) | #10 | ||
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I think you are on a hiding to nothing here mate really.
Saying the bike was lemon is the same as saying the YZR500 was a lemon when Rainey rode it! Just coz Sarron, Ruggia, Mackenzie et al couldnt win on it makes it Rainey is a GOD not the bike is useless. Same as Rossi on the M1, no one else got anywhere near winning on a Yam, so the bike was a heap? No, Rossi and Burges made it work better than anyone else. Kocinski on the YZR250, Garriga, Lavado, Cadalora on the same bike, JK wins on new tracks first year out, bike was slow as hell, JK is a GOD not the bike a turd. For me I see your point in a way, but if the bike really was a pile of rubbish, no-one would win on it. The fact that these things happen is due to the pure genius of some riders and teams at gettng their bikes to work. Watch 91 GP500 video and imagine someone liike Pedrosa or Lorenzo doing what Wayne did in some races there. Getting away, being caught, letting someone pull away then learning how to ride different, use the bike in better ways and coming back to beat a faster NSR or RGV to win. This is what Rossi used to do on the M1 and in some ways the RC211, not to the same level, as frankly I don't bracket Rossi in the same league as Rainey, Doohan, Schwantz and Lawson. But similar styles of learning and racing. |
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16 Mar 2011, 20:12 (Ref:2847054) | #11 | ||
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No I'm not really simply because I'm not trying to convince anybody. I'm stating my opinion based on my views of what the qualities of a good race bike should be, my observations and looking closely at the stats.
Your views differ and that's fine by me, this is not Crash Net. I can see the other side of the coin the Duc has won more 800cc races than any other bike so it must be a good bike right? I just don't see it like that. YMMV |
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17 Mar 2011, 10:34 (Ref:2847347) | #12 | ||
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So, is the Ducati Team crap? I dont think so...
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17 Mar 2011, 11:10 (Ref:2847358) | #13 | ||
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It's a strange argument really.
Most teams tend to concentrate on one rider even in the early days of Sheene, Roberts. Suzuki didnt back then after SHeene, hence wins for Lucky and Uncini and Mamola getting there. But since then, most temas polarize around one rider. Honda had Spencer, Gardner and Mick, then briefly Criville and finally Rossi. Suzuki went with Schwantz from the off of the V4. then wre nowhere until Junior. Yamaha started with Roberts then Lawsonm Rainey, got nowhere with Luca really and then finally got the bike better for Biaggi. So amost of the reults for those lead riders were good. Guys like Magee, Mackenzie, Chili, Sarron, de Radigues, Haslam McElnea etc etc were quick but didnt develop the bike so obviusly would not be as quivk. I think Ducati have done a great job with their bike. I willadmit that the other riders have rarely done any good, apart from brief times with Barros and Xaus, but that was DAntin, a hideously run team!! I tink the 800 bike has always been a hard bike to ride, and Corse were so focused on Stoner, he was so demanding that noone else got a loom in praps. If Stoner could do those things, then in my eyes so could Jorge Valentino and others, maybe in a differnet way and setup, but they can do it. |
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17 Mar 2011, 11:24 (Ref:2847366) | #14 | ||
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We can reword 'crap' to 'A team that has been a few years without presenting serious championship contention' if you'd like the sentence toned down to post-Barry commentary.
I don't think the 2007 bike was a dog, but it has slipped since then. |
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17 Mar 2011, 11:40 (Ref:2847385) | #15 | ||
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17 Mar 2011, 11:55 (Ref:2847394) | #16 | |||
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In the 3 seasons since the Yamahas and Hondas have developed well whereas the Ducati has gone backwards each year. You can't do that and expect to stay competative for long. |
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17 Mar 2011, 12:08 (Ref:2847406) | #17 | |||
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Depending on how development goes, one rider's reputation is in for a massive boost this year. It may be Rossi's or it may be Stoner's. |
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17 Mar 2011, 13:12 (Ref:2847451) | #18 | ||
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I can honestly say I was not a fan of Stoner in 250 or early GP days.
He came across as a bit of a de Puniet or Hopkins, quick qualifier and has raw speed but no ability to last a race. I don't really know he he did it on the Ducati, but he just made the bike work and was able to run at such a pace for the whole race that no-one could live with it sometimes. I liken it a bit to Kato on the NSR in 2001 was it? Or perhaps recently di Meglio in 125, totally dominant really. Speed in hand, like Simon on 125 after showing nothing for years beforehand. They have struggled more since 2007, but Casey has remained quick and for me is absolutely the fastest guy out there. But team mates? Melandri has been proven to be a bad egg really, Checa was okay but not really a 250 rider and Loris was about the quickest team mate he had? Dani is quick coz he is basically a flea with arms, legs and a brain. Rossi was the quickest and Jorge rides an M1 just the same way he rode an Aprilia. Whats going to decide this is not 2011, but next year. Can these guys ride a 1000? I think Casey can, not sure about Dani but certainly Nicky and Valentino will come back into it if the 2012 bike is good. I will agree that the 2010 bike was poor, Casey lost the front countless times and they chopped and changed the thing so many times to get it right, when it worked fine, or he crashed! To sum up, Vale rides it different to Casey, it's that simple. So what works for one doesn't work for another, doesn't make either rider any better than the other. King Kenny said the same about Luca and Wayne in 93 so cant take credit! |
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18 Mar 2011, 15:24 (Ref:2848155) | #19 | |||
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19 Mar 2011, 09:39 (Ref:2848699) | #20 | ||
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He won 6 GP i think in 08 & 4 in 09 & 3 in 10 - crashed out of the lead in 4 or 5
GP's aswell... Hardly a crap bike! |
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22 Mar 2011, 00:31 (Ref:2850907) | #21 | ||
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Rossi should at least be able to qualify on pole if he is as good as he is supposed to be! Now just making excuses! |
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22 Mar 2011, 00:40 (Ref:2850909) | #22 | ||
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Wouldnt say excuses, more like, not the dominating rider he was 3 or 4 years ago as the younger riders have caught up & age is probably catching up with Valentino - normal progression of a sportsman!
Time waits for no-one... |
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22 Mar 2011, 08:18 (Ref:2851021) | #23 | ||
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After some thought I don't really think Vale has lost a huge amount of pace.
What he has done is realised that modern bikes can't be ridden around like the old 2 strokes or early 990's could. Now you can ONLY make progress along with electronics, you can maybe over-ride a bike a bit but not as much as before. Simply put, the Duke just suits the way Casey rides. He is fairly old school in that he doesn't use tons of TC and stuff, he prefers it to feel basic, and can simply sit at that level very quickly. Does that make him a better rider? Well it certainly makes him perhaps the most talented. But does he really know how to sort out the problems? I think Vale does and he is at that stage now where he isnt going to go 100% and bin it for 5th when 7th is fine coz the bike isnt quick enough to win. For the win he will push that last bit, Casey pushed all the time and won, but also crashed a lot especially in 2010 when the bike was good. The Honda is the quickest bike out there, no doubt, the Yam is the best handling, no doubt and you have three guys on the best bikes, Jorge, Casey and Dani. When Vale was winning, what did you have? Max on a Yamaha, Kenny on a Suzuki, Loris and Barros on Honda's and Dukes, Sete on a similar Honda. Vale had them covered most of the time as they were not as good as him aswell as being on similar or worse bikes. Vale is now on a bike he is not happy with (for the first time in his career I think as the Yam was quick from the off) and he is up against riders who are on sorted, quick and faster than his bikes. So, he is not some sort of God, he can't ride on water and he is certainly not fully fit. But nI thnk he can sort it and he can get podiums, wins maybe not Casey is closer to God, but if the bike can't work can he fix it without crashing? |
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22 Mar 2011, 11:10 (Ref:2851118) | #24 | ||
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was the 2010 bike any good? i dont think it was, for me it was the worst bike duc had brought to GP, at least in the 800cc era. both Hayden and Stoner couldnt keep the front end sticky side down, with it obviously affecting stoner more, perhaps because of style, or maybe that he was just faster and pushing it harder. going back and forth between 09 and 10 forks, then the hybrids probably confused the matter more, but at the end of the day, the bike had to be ridden and the rider needed to feel he could at least get some kind of time out of it. how much input did Stoner get in the Duc? the Italians are a funny bunch and at least in the 1st year he wasn't their intended favored son, it was more by chance than good management he ended up on a Red bike, hell after throwing it down the road so many time sin the 1st year i didn't think hed be back for a 2nd.... what he did prove in that 1st year was that even on the lowest of the low Hondas he as putting it up there with the Repsol boys and on occasion showing them up (while he was upright). Then on the Duc he put that bike in positions no one else could, Capirossi and Melandri can hardly be classified as slow riders (although Melandri's ego was probably a little bigger than his talent allowed) Melandris recent WSBK results have shown hes no slouch when the bike is OK, as with his time on the Hayate. Rossi on the other hand has had nothing but the best of the best while in GP, best teams, best bikes, arguably best engineer team, best grid girls and undisputed no 1 status in any team (except for perhaps the last 2 years). now he finds himself injured and on what is evidently the 3rd best bike on the grid. Rossi and JB need to get their **** togeather and sort out whats going on. did they underestimate how bad the bike is? i think so. what im interested to know is with Duc shutting down their WSBK team to effectively get Rossi, have they left themselves enough budget to fix the bike? or did they just think Rossi > Stoner therefore bike should just fly! evidently not. the electronics argument goes round and round. Everyone would have similar gear, TC wise - or access to it. 1st it was stoner uses too much TC. i dont know about you, but i wouldnt expect a bike to be bucking and weaving like that with too much TC. now its that he didn't use that much and this is effecting Rossi. I think where Rossi will get it turned around is he and JB seem to wrk very well with rider feedback and interpretation. its entirely possible that Stoner is pants at dev work. Either that or Duc were too concerned on fixing the bike for the other rider. I think whats been shown so far is that perhaps Stoner has been rather underestimated as a rider and the Duc has been flattered by a great rider. the ball is now in Rossi's court. both he and Duc have a lot to loose if they cant get it to work |
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22 Mar 2011, 11:37 (Ref:2851144) | #25 | ||
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It will be interesting this year as I think of anyone de Puniet is the closest to Stoner in terms of rider style.
If he goes wel and he idd in Qatar before yet another novie cold tyre crash, wel will know it's about the way you ride the thing. And I dont har lots of people saying Randy is a GOD for what he does!! THe question you have to ask is would Casey have been able to run the M1 around in 2004? Would he know what the best configuration of those 4 engine specs was? Would he, knowing he had no top speed advantage, make the bike be able to go flat through one bend and sacrifice the rest of the lap to gain an advantage over everyone there? Coz that's the kind of thing Vale did at Yamaha. For me Vale is the best, not coz he is the quickest though for 10 years he was, but because he was the cleverest. And for the record I don't bracket the current guys with Rainey, Lawson, Schwantz and Doohan, those guys were different league riding much harder to ride bikes on crap tyres, no electronics, unsafe tracks and firecraker power bands!! |
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