ALMS 2012 Discussion

[DeathOrGlory]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

I'm now on the hoping-Petit-is-moved-to-September-in-lue-of-an-extra-round-so-WEC-teams-can-enter-bandwagon. Extra rounds are nice, but a fatter grid for Petit with the important cars from the WEC would be better. Can you imagine ten hours with three P1 cars?

Hmm, the Dempsey press release talks about Patrick's desires to go to Le Mans, and yet he might not be allowed to drive the darn thing?

Chris

The plan was to go to LMP2 with a Lola-Mazda or anything-with-a-Mazda engined package, was it? What's he doing in LMPC with Henri Richard? When Dyson was talking about a third car, he's gotta be that guy. Wonder what happened there.

[JAG]

Dempey's been looking at P2, with or without Mazda, I've not read anything to suggest he was looking to link-up with Dyson.

If Mazda are looking at a new P2 engine in the near future, it makes sense for Dempsey to delay the move until they can step up together.

[The Badger]

I think its a very sensible move . Find his feet in LMPC , and progress up the ranks in future . Great to see another LMPC , turning into a nice little championship .

I must sdmit I didnt like them at first , but they can provide some decent racing when run properly .

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

Can you imagine ten hours with three P1 cars?

Again, PLM existed before the ILMC and diesels. Back in mid-2000's it was just Audi versus bunch of privateers in P1, you automatically knew who was going to win. GT1s were able to be on the overall podium. On top of that GT2/GT was for long just a Porsche parade with maybe an lone Esperante or 360 Modena to challenge them. Yet the races were great.

In fact, let's look at the 2010 race. The 40+ car field that actually started the race was filled with ALMS entries, the only outsiders being: 4 diesels, 1 Oak, 1 Drayson and the Porsche GT3 hybrid.

Some people are really over exaggerating on this matter, Petit will survive. Also, without the diesel-boredom in front there might actually be some additional entrys in P1 now. You know, now there's actual chance to win the race overall!

[Fogelhund]

LMP-C? So much for the open topped insurance concerns.

[Speed-King]

I think the PR-piece could be read either way... there's nothing in there that is a confirmation that Patrick will actually drive the car...

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Again, PLM existed before the ILMC and diesels. Back in mid-2000's it was just Audi versus bunch of privateers in P1, you automatically knew who was going to win. GT1s were able to be on the overall podium. On top of that GT2/GT was for long just a Porsche parade with maybe an lone Esperante or 360 Modena to challenge them. Yet the races were great.

In fact, let's look at the 2010 race. The 40+ car field that actually started the race was filled with ALMS entries, the only outsiders being: 4 diesels, 1 Oak, 1 Drayson and the Porsche GT3 hybrid.

Some people are really over exaggerating on this matter, Petit will survive. Also, without the diesel-boredom in front there might actually be some additional entrys in P1 now. You know, now there's actual chance to win the race overall!

I'm not on the we need the WEC or we'll die bandwagon, so don't get me wrong. Actually, I kind of like that Petit will be all ALMS, perhaps that will provide more reason for American teams to enter in some capacity. In the mid 2000s, say 2005 for example, P1 started 6 and P2 started 7 and the races were fabulous. I'm just worried that we won't have a single P2 and there might be only ten prototypes on the grid at all. One, two, or three more P1s would make a huge difference. On top of that, there is potential for a couple P2 cars it seems, so fingers and toes crossed. The ALMS always delivers great races, even in these lean years. However, the cars from the the last mid-decade tended to be a little more robust than the cars of today (that is purely going off of memory) so the potential is that P1 could be decided by laps and laps and there won't be the big battles we've become accustomed to.

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I think the PR-piece could be read either way... there's nothing in there that is a confirmation that Patrick will actually drive the car...

They seem to have Duncan Ende and Henri Richard driving full season. One would assume either Joe Foster or Patrick will join those two at Sebring and Petit Le Mans. I'm wondering if the loss of Duncan means only one car for TRG full season.

Chris

[Deleted]

I'm sure there will be at least some competition in P2 because unless I'm mistaken, Petit class win still gives automatic entry for LM.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Again, PLM existed before the ILMC and diesels. Back in mid-2000's it was just Audi versus bunch of privateers in P1, you automatically knew who was going to win. GT1s were able to be on the overall podium. On top of that GT2/GT was for long just a Porsche parade with maybe an lone Esperante or 360 Modena to challenge them. Yet the races were great.

In fact, let's look at the 2010 race. The 40+ car field that actually started the race was filled with ALMS entries, the only outsiders being: 4 diesels, 1 Oak, 1 Drayson and the Porsche GT3 hybrid.

Some people are really over exaggerating on this matter, Petit will survive. Also, without the diesel-boredom in front there might actually be some additional entrys in P1 now. You know, now there's actual chance to win the race overall!

The difference between today and the R8 era is that R8 domination was just the way sports car racing worked during that era. There wasn't any real competitor in existence. Today, the fans know there are good cars from multiple teams and I think there would be disappointment if some (or all) don't show up. The one reason for hope (aside from Toyota and/or Audi giving Bahrain the finger) is that maybe the Strakka ARX-03a will be competitive in the WEC and Pickett will have an ARX-03a here as well. At least then the fans will know there is one "world class" LMP1 in the field.

The lack of LMP2 car count is an issue, but I doubt it is a deal breaker for those who are considering buying tickets or not.

My hope is that the Petit fans will still come to the track in 2012 with the knowledge that the ALMS was screwed and will try their best to enjoy what is on the track. That may work for a year or two, but eventually Petit will need some sort of glamor to return to the track (whether it be ALMS entries or one-off guests) if they want to continue to attract the crowds they have had in recent years.

[gregtummer]

Hopefully the citizens of Bahrain stand up and riot again (don't want anyone to get hurt though) so WEC is forced to move to Petit.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

Hopefully the citizens of Bahrain stand up and riot again (don't want anyone to get hurt though) so WEC is forced to move to Petit.

x 2. Either that or the ALMS needs to suck it up and move the date so we have some Euro entries. As it stands attendance will be WAY down, starting with this guy...
There is some bad blood behind the scenes between the ALMS and WEC that no one is talking about...

[trahsub]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

x 2. Either that or the ALMS needs to suck it up and move the date so we have some Euro entries. As it stands attendance will be WAY down, starting with this guy...
There is some bad blood behind the scenes between the ALMS and WEC that no one is talking about...

Gents that do not like each other? Do tell!

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

x 2. Either that or the ALMS needs to suck it up and move the date so we have some Euro entries. As it stands attendance will be WAY down, starting with this guy...
There is some bad blood behind the scenes between the ALMS and WEC that no one is talking about...

I don't think bad blood plays a huge role in this. I think it is reality. The FIA is now directly involved with sports car racing, so their formula for maximum number of entries on a circuit is going to be set in stone. Right now, on a small circuit like Road Atlanta a combination of the ALMS and WEC grids would make it oversubscribed. Neither series would want to be in a situation where teams cannot enter the race, thus one or the other championship has to be out at that event. Sebring looks like it is going that way as well, too many cars when the two series come together so entries may have to go home. Neither championship wants that so if the WEC wants a round in America it will have to be separate from the ALMS.

The bad blood is on the side of the ALMS who feel like they've sacrificed potential full-season entrants for a championship they get no benefit from. (Even though Sebring and Petit this year were improved, next year there is no WEC at Petit and Sebring will likely be one and done on the WEC calendar.) But the ALMS has no reason to bend over backwards for a championship that provides them no direct benefit. I'm not sure if the ACO feels any bad blood towards the ALMS unless they are offended that the ALMS wants to exist as a separate and distinct, successful entity.

Chris

[Canada ALMS fan]

Scheduling a event on the same day as one of their key events that directly competes for many of the same entries??? And, with no knowledge of this so the date of Petit could be changed.
Not the sign of a healthy relationship.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

Scheduling a event on the same day as one of their key events that directly competes for many of the same entries??? And, with no knowledge of this so the date of Petit could be changed.
Not the sign of a healthy relationship.

Not the sign of a healthy relationship, no. Other than saving the sport of sports car racing last decade I can't think of any wrong the ALMS has done to the ACO, oh wait... There exists only questions as to why Bahrain? Why October? Why October 20th? There might very well be a reason that the FIA/ACO could only schedule a race on a weekend at what is generally an empty race track at the same time its sister-series is already competing in an established event. But I don't know it.

Chris

[Dyson Mazda]

nm

[Dyson Mazda]

nm

[Dyson Mazda]

I guess there is hope we may get a few LMS entries over for PLM. I could see Audi putting a single car in the race as well.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

I guess there is hope we may get a few LMS entries over for PLM. I could see Audi putting a single car in the race as well.

I think it's too early to say about the LMS because we still don't have the dates for their schedule yet. Also, it's not totally clear who will compete in the LMS yet. I suppose it's possible that a couple of teams might come over, but I would not expect any large numbers. The teams that have an international agenda are probably going to end up racing in the WEC anyway. We'll have to see when things become finalized though.

Is there any possibility that Oryx/al Masaood will skip Petit to compete closer to home? Actually, has it official that Oryx will be back with Dyson next year? I know all the talk has been that the Oryx car would be the 2nd of 2 cars that are assured/almost assured for next year, but I don't know if anything has changed.

As far as Audi goes, they're going to be pretty stretched as it is with all the DTM and WEC conflicts. I don't know if they can afford to take anything more on than what they have already. A possibility might be to farm a car out to another team, but Audi NA would probably have to pay for that and there is no evidence that they are willing to do so. The R15+/++ would be eligible to compete I would think, but I don't know if those have been officially mothballed or what. I doubt they'd go that route even if they did show up at PLM. Toyota could be a possibility as they aren't going to do the full WEC anyway.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by AGD

I think it's too early to say about the LMS because we still don't have the dates for their schedule yet. Also, it's not totally clear who will compete in the LMS yet. I suppose it's possible that a couple of teams might come over, but I would not expect any large numbers. The teams that have an international agenda are probably going to end up racing in the WEC anyway. We'll have to see when things become finalized though.

Is there any possibility that Oryx/al Masaood will skip Petit to compete closer to home? Actually, has it official that Oryx will be back with Dyson next year? I know all the talk has been that the Oryx car would be the 2nd of 2 cars that are assured/almost assured for next year, but I don't know if anything has changed.

As far as Audi goes, they're going to be pretty stretched as it is with all the DTM and WEC conflicts. I don't know if they can afford to take anything more on than what they have already. A possibility might be to farm a car out to another team, but Audi NA would probably have to pay for that and there is no evidence that they are willing to do so. The R15+/++ would be eligible to compete I would think, but I don't know if those have been officially mothballed or what. I doubt they'd go that route even if they did show up at PLM. Toyota could be a possibility as they aren't going to do the full WEC anyway.

Toyota could steal some (sports car) headlines with a win at Petit. However, I don't expect them to come. Audi N/A might feel the impetus for some involvement in PLM purely for the corporate party, though Sebring will undoubtedly be a big shindig for them. Oryx will be back for year two in the ALMS, Humaid would have to rent-a-ride to run at Bahrain but I imagine he will run Petit. The teams that are running one car in the LMS and one car in the WEC could possibly enter PLM but they would have to have a very good ($) reason to. I think I've moved on and am more concerned with the ALMS rebuilding itself as a national/continental championship.

Chris

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

The teams that are running one car in the LMS and one car in the WEC could possibly enter PLM but they would have to have a very good ($) reason to.

I can't see Greaves having the infrastructure of doing both without hiring some outside help. I don't know if they would have a reason to want to come to Petit either. Someone like AF Corse might be possible because they might be able to get some money from someone to run Petit, but who knows if they'll even be in the LMS. We'll see.

I know we were discussing the US OAK rumor on another thread, but I wonder if it could be Highcroft. I know they don't have a lot of money right now and they are working on the DeltaWang (hopefully that project has failed by now), but maybe they are looking at running a real car too.

As far as getting over the slight, not me. I'm actually more upset now than I was when I first read it. I wasn't surprised at first at the shortsightedness, but now the disappointment has set in that this is reality. As far as the FIA is concerned, there is an old adage that I think applies in this situation. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. I think that says it all.

[FstrthnU]

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20111114/ALMS/111119929
http://www.motorsport.com/alms/news/...2012-calendar/
This also in, ALMS CEO Scott Atherton is also ****ed at the ACO for dumping Petit Le Mans.

[gregtummer]

I know that everyone believed that the Oreca Peugeot's last race would be at Petit Le Mans (including me), but why not bring that car over for next year's race if none of the factory Audi's and Peugeot's are entering?

I mean you have a (essential) Peugeot factory car that can only enter ALMS events anyways. It will probably be un-neutered so it has a good chance of winning.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

I know that everyone believed that the Oreca Peugeot's last race would be at Petit Le Mans (including me), but why not bring that car over for next year's race if none of the factory Audi's and Peugeot's are entering?

I mean you have a (essential) Peugeot factory car that can only enter ALMS events anyways. It will probably be un-neutered so it has a good chance of winning.

Who would run it though? Peugeot would not have a lot of interest in that. Oreca would not.

Anyway, we were just discussing whether Oryx might skip Petit to do Bahrain and this interview with Chris Dyson was just posted. Included is this question:

The Dyson Racing could he do other races of the World Championship of Endurance as Sebring?

"It's possible. It makes us look at the calendar and it depends entirely on the wishes of our partners. "

Hmm...

[gregtummer]

If there is about to be a flat out WEC vs. ALMS war, the advantage ALMS has is that ALMS doesn't have the FIA neutering it.

ALMS could take ALL the restrictors off the cars and run 2007-2008 regulations and say "Hey we are as fast or faster than the factory Peugeots and Audis, etc.