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23 Sep 2014, 16:56 (Ref:3456927) | #51 | ||
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23 Sep 2014, 17:05 (Ref:3456929) | #52 | |
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23 Sep 2014, 17:46 (Ref:3456941) | #53 | ||
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Jim bought the ALMS partially to be part of the global sports car club and at the ACO big table. |
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23 Sep 2014, 18:08 (Ref:3456951) | #54 | |
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I believe this is true, given past history. Grand-Am was supposed to be partnered with an international group in its early days (I believe it was the FIA)but didn't work out for some reason.
I think because of something to do with the regs of the cars maybe?. So they decided to go the cheap racing route. Hopefully an alliance will be form and will make Daytona, Sebring, and P LeMans get back on some international calendar someday(and maybe Walkin Glen too) |
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23 Sep 2014, 18:21 (Ref:3456954) | #55 | |||
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The ACO big table -- -- where everyone else gets cement overshoes The France family does not care about anything beyond the France family. Big Bill was a racer and gear-head, that died with him. |
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23 Sep 2014, 18:59 (Ref:3456966) | #56 | ||
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I am not saying Jim France is in love with the tradition of sports car racing and recognizes that it started in Europe, and that sports car racing really needs to be international because its fan base is international and cosmopolitan---but at he very least he is an astute businessman who recognizes that his easiest path to success is allying himself with--and thus gaining influence with--the worldwide heads of the sport, which would be the ACO and the FIA. Here in the U.S. NASCAR can be the 800-lb gorilla, but on the global stage, FIA and ACO can jack him up or shut him down. If he wants to be the North American Emperor of Sports Cars the way Brian France is the North American Emperor of Stock Cars (and pretty much profitable professional racing generally) then Jim France has to kiss the ring of the Pope, Jean Todt. Pretty smart move--instead of competing with the oldest, biggest and best known sports car power structure in the world, Jim France becomes an ally, and gains a seat on the council. Since he has NASCAR's financial success to back him up, he can preach crap like common P2 chassis with "styling cue" bodywork, and similar crap. And since he has a relationship with the U.S. manufacturers, he can swing their weight--something even the FIA-ACO would be foolish to ignore. He can set himself up as the gatekeeper to the American manufacturers---Very Powerful Position. I think Jim France very much wants a seat at the global sports car table--if only because that is the first step to sitting at the head of that table. Jim France is no fool--he realizes sports car racing in North America is never going to be a huge sport. But if he can get his fingers in the global pie--he can eat much higher on the hog, to mess up some metaphors. And if he can get his hands on the global hog, he might one day ride astride it--or at least eat the biggest portion. Global sports car ham and bacon--the true goal of Jim France. |
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23 Sep 2014, 20:49 (Ref:3456985) | #57 | ||
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You've made me hungry for guanciale, porchetta and maybe trotters.
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23 Sep 2014, 21:12 (Ref:3456996) | #58 | ||
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23 Sep 2014, 21:34 (Ref:3457002) | #59 | ||
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New management, from the top down. That is all.
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23 Sep 2014, 22:29 (Ref:3457015) | #60 | |||
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24 Sep 2014, 02:14 (Ref:3457056) | #61 | |
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" U.S. racing does not need anyone or thing from Europe any more than Europe needs the U.S. The only makes the average U.S. fan knows are Ferrari and Porsche; while if they do not show, no one truly cares, nor do or will they save, or destroy, U.S. racing."
I'd say that a brief perusal of historical records show otherwise. In sports car racing, Porsche, Jaguar, Ferrari, BMW, and Alfa Romeo have long been important players. Australia? Well, I guess—but only if you count the complete domination of Can-Am by McLaren—until Porsche arrived. Also, Sports Car fans (I don't know who you think "average" fans are, but I know who I have spoken and corresponded with) are very aware of Porsche, Audi, Ferrari and their impact on U.S. sports car racing ... and there is this race, Le mans? You might have heard of it. Pretty much every sports car fan I have every communicated with seems to think it is the premier sports car race on the planet. When was it that sports car racing was bigger than everything else? The Indy 500, the Daytona 500, and the Monaco Grand Prix were for a decade about the only races shown on TV. Sports car racing might have had a sizeable community, but the Indy 500 and Daytona 500 got a quarter of a million fans showing up at the track every year. I doubt 250,000 people showed up at every sports car event combined in 1961 or 1963. However, when the sports car scene really started growing in the U.S. after WW II ... it was European cars entirely, because American cars were obese, over-cushioned, underperforming boats. Except for the motors, which were put in hand-crafted or European chassis, there were no American anything except drivers in sports car racing. Your examples of how well North American sports car racing works without any international relevance: ALMS after 2009, Rolex, and TUSC. Yahoo. As for getting Detroit involved again ... you mean like Corvette and Viper? or are you referring to the GTP era, when Ford and Chevy raced ... Porsche and Toyota. As for taking out all the stupid BoP—I am right there with you on that. Thing is, it is the manufacturers who want the BoP, so I don't see that going away. Sadly. |
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24 Sep 2014, 05:58 (Ref:3457089) | #62 | |||
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Big difference. I am referring to when Detroit raced from 1967 to the mid-eighties with cars that were not contrived crap wagons controlled by a bs balance of performance farce. Addendum: It was John Bishop in the early post, not Jim. |
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24 Sep 2014, 06:51 (Ref:3457097) | #63 | |||
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To the point: You mention the gearheads, the guys tuning their own cars etc. From my experience, the guys tuning their own cars etc. are just that, tuning-nerds. Just because someone uses money on placebo performance improvements or questionable styling cues for their road car(s) that they won't be able to use in 99% of their everyday lives doesn't mean they're sports car fans. It's like expecting overclocking gamers to be ASIC designers, IMHO. So I wouldn't draw conclusions from their non-knowledge. |
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24 Sep 2014, 11:56 (Ref:3457159) | #64 | |
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"To an average U.S. racing fan, not just sport car fanatics, they are nothing."
Ywes but we are talking about sports car racing--maybe I didn't make that clear? As for "average" racing fans (i.e. racing fans that do Not like sports car racing) they are no different than football or hockey fans: they do Not like sports car racing. What they think about a sport which doesn't interest them is pretty much irrelevant. Your point seems to be that only major U.S. factory involvement will bring us back to the late '60s ... but I'd say sports car racing was at its biggest and best in the U.S. in the late '70s to late '80s or so with Camel GT/GTP---both series which depended upon a large number of foreign cars. Another point I raised earlier about selling performance cars: When U.S. autio manufacturers used Performance ans a chief selling point for quite a few cars in their product lines-- the Musclecar/Ponycar days---well, that just happened to be the same time they spent heavily in Trans-Am and Ford went to Le Mans. Around 1972 the EPA, pollution controls, and skyrocketing fuel prices killed off the appeal of performance cars, and at no time since has selling really fast cars (or cars marketed as being really fast) been anywhere near as important to U.S. car buyers or manufacturers. And unless the car-buying public suddenly sees the need to spend a bunch of money for performance capabilities which it can never use ... those days ain't coming back. Nowadays you can buy a little turbocharged $25,000 Ford which will perform on par with a 1975 Porsche Turbo--the introductory model which pretty much changed the landscape for a while. Basically any hot hatch has performance capabilities way beyond most drivers' abilities to extract or exploit. Most buyers simply don't see the need for 600 horsepower, and "high performance" is no longer a nationwide selling point for a large part of any manufacturer's line-up---it isn't what most people want or are willing to pay for. That makes going racing a lot less appealing as a promotional venture, and particularly with the financial issues the Big Three have had (Chrysler sold, GM bailed out, Ford close to bankruptcy a few years back) U.S. autio makers are focused on what sells, not the pride and ego of the owners (such as which drove Ford to assault Le Mans.) Also, when the Big Four (I remember the AMC Javelins) were producing all kinds of specialty performance models they were not being outsold by foreign competitiors. Even the biggest European marques barely had a foothold int eh U.S. and the Japanese were even smaller. Since the early '70s Detroit has been getting its butt beat in sales by particularly the Japanese, and have not had the luxury of producing whatever kinds of cars they happened to dream up--and haven't had the luxury of blowing off big chunks of money in racing programs. Like you, I can remember when U.S. car makers produced what were basically Homologation Specials---limited runs of NASCAR or Trans-Am themed cars designed solely to allow the factories to use higher-performance parts at the track. Nowadays the money isn't there for that. The amount it costs to design and produce, and advertise and deliver very limited-appeal performance cars is way beyond what anyone would pay for them. The fact that NASCAR races clones with tightoly controlled motors prevents any more 426 hemis, Superbirds or Charger Daytonas, or 427 Torinos or any of that fun stuff. As for road racing, it is even less popular, and it is thus even less profitable for factories to produce small-run specialty models based on it. "If you build it they will come" might work in the movies, but GM and Ford aren;'t going to convince their accountants to spend heavily in road racing in order to attract a fan base which existed in 1967. "Those days are gone forever, over a long time ago." |
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24 Sep 2014, 14:15 (Ref:3457205) | #65 | ||||
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The peak of fan attendance for Road Racing was the late sixties and early seventies with Trans Am and Can Am, at least in North America.
Second, here are some posts from another board, from early in 2013 on the merger. Quote:
Quote:
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25 Sep 2014, 04:05 (Ref:3457428) | #66 | ||
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25 Sep 2014, 04:55 (Ref:3457433) | #67 | |||
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25 Sep 2014, 11:13 (Ref:3457509) | #68 | |
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30 Sep 2014, 12:21 (Ref:3458876) | #69 | ||
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Ford looking ahead to 2017 (in vague Jamie Allison terms).
http://www.racer.com/imsa/item/10916...-power-in-2017 |
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30 Sep 2014, 12:57 (Ref:3458885) | #70 | ||
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Unfortunately for us US road racing is a tiny slice of market for American manufacturers. Both GM and Ford are spending big bucks on NASCAR teams and lesser on multiple TUSCC teams but now a lot of money goes into series outside the US, Ford in WRC, Ford and Chevy (Cruze) in WTC, Ford and GM(Vauxhall) in BTCC etc. The money is going where it will get results, and unlike the 60's and 70's is not concentrated in the US, to our loss.
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30 Sep 2014, 14:44 (Ref:3458909) | #71 | ||
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A lot of those decisions are made on a more local or regional basis though, not necessarily the NA arm.
Also, Ford stopped supporting WRC (the 'works' team is M-Sport, funded by their private sales), Chevy in WTCC is a RML private affair and I didn't know Vauxhall or Ford even have those other programmes. Just to be pedantic. |
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30 Sep 2014, 14:55 (Ref:3458911) | #72 | ||
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In the most recent print version of Racer Mag, there was an article about future P2 regs globally, and how the new coupes (Ligier, HPD, Dome, Oreca) haven't been told they will be legal in 2017. There are also some quotes from Mike Shank about how these regulations will apply to IMSA. He specifically mentions Jim France wants brandable bodywork, but the ACO isn't thrilled with that idea.
Of course we keep hearing IMSA and the ACO/FIA are working together to develop the 2017 regs, but does anybody here think IMSA will be 100% aligned with the ACO on these regs come 2017? Shank somewhat alludes to this by mentioning that the rules need to make sure to have a "generic" body to use if a US team wants to run in Europe, or vice versa. For me this is one of the problems with the discussion. If the fully developed Ligier, Oreca, HPD, Dome, etc. bodywork is called "generic" simply because it doesn't have an OEM grill and headlights, I can't see IMSA and the ACO aligning their interests. The cars aren't "generic", they are proper race cars. |
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30 Sep 2014, 15:08 (Ref:3458915) | #73 | |
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Or they could adopt the SGT/DTM Class 1 ruleset which has cars that run in Europe and Asia and are brand specific.
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30 Sep 2014, 15:17 (Ref:3458916) | #74 | |
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In my eyes they in fact only become 'generic' once they receive the DP makeover and get bopped according to that attribute...
Anyhow I'm not sure if Shank understands the concept of LMP2 in the first place. |
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30 Sep 2014, 15:56 (Ref:3458922) | #75 | |
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All these cars will become "generic" if they force every manufacturer to build Identical chassis, the way Rolex tried to. What I fear is that IMSA pressure will lead FIA-ACO to adopt truly generic chassis and body—where every car has to submit bodywork for aero testing, and all bodywork has to be within a narrow performance range (Rolex did this, ridiculous as it sounds) and all chassis regs are defined so narrowly that every chassis is effectively a carbon (fiber) copy of every other.
This is what Rolex actually did, and even though it failed, I don't think the former Rolex officials ruining (not a typo) TUSC today have learned any lessons at all. Basically, they had and still want a field of absolutely identical cars, with absolutely identical performance—the same aero, the same engine performance (really, horsepower and torque curves pre-determined?) with the lowest common denominator—the worst "styling cue" bodywork—determining the performance of the whole field. This is so far removed from the actual sports, and even from FIA-ACO's cost-capped P2 regs currently in operation, it seems ridiculous, but this is exactly what Jim France et al are lobbying for. The problem is, even if FIA-ACO adopts even a portion of these rules, it kills the sport. FIA-ACO might not allow "brandable bodywork" but if they give in on individual chassis and bodywork, if they accept "generic" bodywork which all has to perform the same on every car, we will be watching NASCAR with right turns—essentially spec racers with absolutely nothing about the cars which matter from the first engineering drawing to the last race of the season. Might as well buy identical Kias off the nearest dealer's lot and race them. I don't think FIA-ACO will buy the whole TUSC proposal, but if the go for most of it, the North American arm of the sport is over. WEC will be fine, because it has ZP1 where real sports car racing can still survive, and P2 is just a secondary class. In North America, we will have a second-best version of second best. Why even bother? I fully expect TUSC to allow "brandable bodywork" whether FIA-ACO allows it or not—teams would buy a complete car from the manufacturer and then buy (subsidized no doubt) banded panels from the engine supplier (if it were Chevy or Ford—I don't see Nissan or Honda wasting cash on this crap.) However, if the current P2s are merely grandfathered for a few years and totally generic "P2" spec chassis and bodywork is mandated ... Well, PWC might consider adding an enduro series, because the crowd will be there. |
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