[WEC] Rebellion Racing

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by seanyb505

I'd venture Paul Ricard and Silverstone won't be priorities, if there is a delay to the season.

Yes well technically there is nothing to loose really as beating up Kolles caravan in the standings shouldn't be too big of an issue later in the season with two cars, and the distance to the factories isn't gonna change in any case. Last year the chassis survived LM with very little running so reliability shouldn't be too big of a worry either, apart from the new engine toothing issues maybe

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by Chiana

What does "start of the season" mean? Paul Ricard Prologue? Paul Ricard and Silverstone? Paul Ricard and Silverstone and Spa? Paul Ricard and Silverstone and Spa and Test Day? More? Can't think how it could take even up to Silverstone TBH unless Oreca has made the chassis awkwardly difficult to modify without breaking everything apart.

Only time will tell, but I would suspect that they also need the time to properly test the integration of the new engine. Let's hope that it won't take too long for them to be ready to hit the track.

The interesting bit of "info" is the explicit reference to the Audi engine, besides the AER alternative.

Has anybody a clue as to how "similar" in configuration Audi's ex-DTM V8 engine is compared to Toyota's ? Could it be "easier" to accommodate the Audi engine compared to the turbocharged AER engine ?

[templer]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Only time will tell, but I would suspect that they also need the time to properly test the integration of the new engine. Let's hope that it won't take too long for them to be ready to hit the track.

The interesting bit of "info" is the explicit reference to the Audi engine, besides the AER alternative.

Has anybody a clue as to how "similar" in configuration Audi's ex-DTM V8 engine is compared to Toyota's ? Could it be "easier" to accommodate the Audi engine compared to the turbocharged AER engine ?

The engines should not be too different as both are 90° V8. The dimensions are maybe different and I don't know if the mounting points at the rear bulkhead have to be changed. But it is of course a lot easier to fit a normal aspirated engine to a car which has already run such an engine. A turbo means additional intercoolers, changed cooling ducts, different airbox, different exhaust layout and so on. Take a look at the CLM P/01 engine bay and you see it. The main problem is the fixing to the monocoque and maybe length differences. If the NBE Audi V8 is shorter than the Toyota it is easy, if not it can be complicated

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Only time will tell, but I would suspect that they also need the time to properly test the integration of the new engine. Let's hope that it won't take too long for them to be ready to hit the track.

The interesting bit of "info" is the explicit reference to the Audi engine, besides the AER alternative.

Has anybody a clue as to how "similar" in configuration Audi's ex-DTM V8 engine is compared to Toyota's ? Could it be "easier" to accommodate the Audi engine compared to the turbocharged AER engine ?

They are both 90 degree V8s, but I don't know about length/width/height.
The Toyota weighs around 120kg and has an aluminium block, but I believe the Audi is cast iron, so presumably is a bit heavier.

[fefe]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

No official news, but the following - rather unfortunate - rumour/news(?) from LesSuissesAuMans who report that, due to the late change of engine supplier, Rebellion Racing might be forced to miss the start of the WEC season to make the necessary changes to accomodate the new (AER or Audi) engine.

Note that the explicit reference to Audi as a possible engine supplier confirms the suspicion of last December where LesSuissesAuMans were referring to a possible engine "originating from Germany".

What a shame if they will miss the first race, but better later then never. Thank you very much for your info. !

[Hawkwood]

I thought the DTM engines were LMP2 standard, not LMP1?
Or are those standards not much different?

Or did I just misread it somewhere? Wouldn't be the first time.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Hawkwood

I thought the DTM engines were LMP2 standard, not LMP1?
Or are those standards not much different?

Or did I just misread it somewhere? Wouldn't be the first time.

Naw, DTM engines have always since the relaunch in 2000 been bespoke racing engines....

[TF110]

Sounds like taking the Audi wouldnt be much issue, so if the article is even true, they may be going for a turbo or a bigger engine.

[BRG]

Has it not been obvious throughout the last season that the Toyota engine was not powerful enough , they couldn’t use the extra brakes they were given by the ACO
I remember a thread suggesting it was no more than 50BHP more than the Nissan lmp2 engine Maybe 550BHP at most, and less torque.
The Audi DTM engine would not be powerful enough either.
The only route for me it is the AER turbo. Take the extra flow rate and boost that can be got out of the ACO
I believe the ACO would let Kolles and rebellion run with +700hp at Le Mans and they would still be 5 seconds from the front.

It's a shame that after the ACO showed they were willing to give the Rebellion engine breaks that Judd didn’t propose a DI version off the 5.5l v10 for these rules

[TF110]

Maybe the way the engine was designed?

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Naw, DTM engines have always since the relaunch in 2000 been bespoke racing engines....

Thanks

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Only time will tell, but I would suspect that they also need the time to properly test the integration of the new engine. Let's hope that it won't take too long for them to be ready to hit the track.

The interesting bit of "info" is the explicit reference to the Audi engine, besides the AER alternative.

On Autosport they now say Silverstone might be a miss at least.

Also that the other options beyond Audi and AER are HPD, Judd and (yeah right) Cosworth. And it won't necessarily be announced at the ACO press conference next week.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/117501

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by Chiana

On Autosport they now say Silverstone might be a miss at least.

Also that the other options beyond Audi and AER are HPD, Judd and (yeah right) Cosworth. And it won't necessarily be announced at the ACO press conference next week.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/117501

A NA V8 engine would be the most logical choice for Rebellion Racing if time is at issue, as such choice is likely to involve less modifications to the engine installation.

BTW, Hayden refers to a Judd V10 engine. I thought Judd were only working on a 4.4L NA V8 engine and that the V10 was not the ideal choice (in terms of weight) according to Judd's own statements.

[Deleted]

Isn't that comment like 15 months old now? Maybe they've refigured things out.

Would be neat to see.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Isn't that comment like 15 months old now? Maybe they've refigured things out.

Sure it's "old" news, but I doubt that Judd would be working both on a V8 and V10 engine without any major sale prospect, would they ?

[Deleted]

Maybe the V8 has been ditched in silence and they just haven't bothered to give any updates. I mean, it's not like they had customers running to get that either

[Félix]

I'd love to see (and hear) the GV V10 come back. Bigger capacity engine running slower is good for efficiency, but more weight and friction (at lower rpm though) aren't good. It was reliable in the end and Judd could probably give it direct injection with a bit of £ (now that they've worked with it for Indy and planned to upgrade the DB with it).

The V8 might be more promising future-wise if it doesn't shake itself apart and they share a lot ("The DB is simply the current V10 with a V pair removed and the V angle changed to 90°") so I'm dreaming of someone with a bit of time, faith and money choosing to run and develop both (with a spacer for the V8) to make it better and better. Rebellion/Sebah has run both in 2008-2010...

[knighty]

For the ideal normally aspirated LMP1 motor you want the biggest capacity allowed to generate the most torque, to be in with a chance of keeping up in the acelleration rates as the works cars with monstrous KERS systems, also the low revs will keep fuel economy low as poss, as friction increases at the square of crankshaft rpm........a DTM engine would be ok, 4 litres i think, but a 5.5 V10 Judd would be ideal, also dont rule out something like a Katech LS based gm engine with direct injection, something like 5 to 7 litres so a warmed over Corvette GT1 or GT2 engine, actually very light weight, its a serious consideration, especially if GM allow Katech to really open the doors. They are very advanced motors.

[chernaudi]

Oddly, the rules say that factory teams can run whatever engine they want, while private teams have a theoretical max engine capacity of 5.5 liters.

I almost feel like that's aimed at like the Judd V10 and souped up GTE engines, where the normal max capacity is 5.5 liters.

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by knighty

For the ideal normally aspirated LMP1 motor you want the biggest capacity allowed to generate the most torque, to be in with a chance of keeping up in the acelleration rates as the works cars with monstrous KERS systems, also the low revs will keep fuel economy low as poss, as friction increases at the square of crankshaft rpm........a DTM engine would be ok, 4 litres i think, but a 5.5 V10 Judd would be ideal, also dont rule out something like a Katech LS based gm engine with direct injection, something like 5 to 7 litres so a warmed over Corvette GT1 or GT2 engine, actually very light weight, its a serious consideration, especially if GM allow Katech to really open the doors. They are very advanced motors.

Does that Katech motor run a cross plane crank? I would love to hear a bellowing V8 in the back of a P1.

[knighty]

to my knowledge, and more importantly - ears......I believe all the Katech LS GT based engines are all cross-plane.......running a flat plane crank is just not necessary now days......I believe the 4.5L LMP2 Nissan motor is also cross-plane, but I'm yet to see one.......a cross plane crank can now be designed very light indeed, for low inertia, and they do not shake the chassis to pieces and the drivers fillings actually stay in his teeth due to being reasonably well balanced.......5.5 litres will do any privateer LMP1 a world of good.......I suspect Rebellions overall problem is their gearbox will possibly be limited to a certain max torque value around 400-500NM, hence the Audi DTM engine may be the only engine the gearbox can cope with, which will be a real compromise in my opinion........the other engines may already be ruled out on that basis - possibly

[chernaudi]

Nissan's VK45 LMP2 engine uses a non-production flatplane crank like the old Super GT GT500 engine did.

The 3.6 Judd HK/BMW engine also uses a flatplane crank like the BMW M3 GT2's 4.0 V8 did, which was also non-production.

Sadly, all the things that make a crossplane crank appealing from an engineering standpoint also benefits flatplane cranks--lighter materials, the ability to make the cranks stiffer and more resilient/durable, etc. Only difference is that the flat cranks sound like 4 bangers and the cross cranks sound like the traditional V8 thunder.

And for better or worse, I can't see either format going anywhere in racing, because of how popular in general V8s are in auto racing.

[BRG]

Knightly said " I suspect Rebellions overall problem is their gearbox will possibly be limited to a certain max torque value around 400-500NM, hence the Audi DTM engine may be the only engine the gearbox can cope with, which will be a real compromise in my opinion........the other engines may already be ruled out on that basis - possibly "
If you are right then there would be no point Rebellions continuing.



I would have thought the new package will be engine and gearbox Kolles are changing to a new gearbox this season proberly because there last one could not take the AER torque.

Most commentators on this board have given the Rebellion team an lot of slack (largely based on the fact than it was the best looking and sounding car on the grid) but this car has never performed well. The same people crucify lotus/ kolles. I suggest if Rebellion go for the Audi DTM then they can't be taken seriously any more.

[Mr Pink]

Originally Posted by BRG

Most commentators on this board have given the Rebellion team an lot of slack (largely based on the fact than it was the best looking and sounding car on the grid) but this car has never performed well. The same people crucify lotus/ kolles. I suggest if Rebellion go for the Audi DTM then they can't be taken seriously any more.

Sorry but this might be the most ridiculous comment I've read on this board.

First of all, the reason why people respect Rebellion is because they've consistently put two cars on the grid in a class where hardly any other privateers have even tried, the sight and sound is just a bonus.

Secondly the car has been racing for one year against fully fledged factory efforts and with an enormous gap in resources.

And third, I haven't seen a lot of people "crucify" Kolles effort at all, most where just happily surprised that they turnt up.

A lot points to the DTM derived engine not to be competitive but if Rebellion chooses it I'm dead sure that they have good reason to do so. Hopefully the reason is that it actually is competitive and hopefully there will be a nice battle between Kolles and Rebellion this year. To suggest that Rebellion can't be taken seriously if they go the Audi route is simply (and I'm trying very hard to refrain from curse words here) ridiculous.

[BRG]

Lux posted on the kolles thread last summer


"So so sad that some of you will moan about a lack of LMP1 cars to compete with Rebellion and then when one comes along your all desperate for it to fail so that you can say "told you so". "

quite alot of people including mr pink used used this for further negitive remarks against Kollers.
Anyway I firmly believe rebellion we change both the engine and gearbox and prove they are worthy, Mabye they will be able to keep up with Kolles this year