The V8 Engine Arms Race

[GTRMagic]

Story Here

There are some great insights here, about how hard some teams focused on development to maximise the potential of the engine parity system as part of V8SC's CotF strategy

The Volvo number is scary, if they have lost 55 engine blocks in 2 seasons.. just WOW!! This might make the view of an engine lasting 1,000km look a little marginal

[mod]
Please note that this is a James Phelps article, and if there is comment on his style or just generally not being a fan, there is a separate thread for that Here

[Langers]

Errr... 55 blocks in 2 seasons? It's a discontinued road car engine... how much stock is out there to keep the cars running for the next 10 years through V8SC, DVS, Kumho and private ownership/sports sedan running?

[Langers]

So many things in that article are confusing the hell out of me... but the Nissan motor with 668+hp vs Red Bull at 620+? Really? With all the issues Nissan has with cylinder head flow this simply doesn't make sense. The "+" surely wouldn't give that much possible upside on the Red Bull. Why bother quoting nonsensical figures?

[rich07]

Originally Posted by Langers

So many things in that article are confusing the hell out of me... but the Nissan motor with 668+hp vs Red Bull at 620+? Really? With all the issues Nissan has with cylinder head flow this simply doesn't make sense. The "+" surely wouldn't give that much possible upside on the Red Bull. Why bother quoting nonsensical figures?

With it being no secret that Nissan have been behind in the horsepower stakes since day one, this is most confusing, it just doesnt add up. Thats pretty crazy about Volvo going through so many blocks, how many this year alone, it seems last years engine was a bit more on the conservative side hence being more reliable.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Langers

So many things in that article are confusing the hell out of me... but the Nissan motor with 668+hp vs Red Bull at 620+? Really? With all the issues Nissan has with cylinder head flow this simply doesn't make sense. The "+" surely wouldn't give that much possible upside on the Red Bull. Why bother quoting nonsensical figures?

The $10m engine build & development budget the NisMoAu squad reportedly has/had should have put them at the very front of the field!

The thing is, peak hp at 668bhp might be 'right' at one point in the rev range, but is peaky, with a very limited operating window.

V8SC should share the numbers.. Hp not budgets..

[Razor]

But hang on. Wasn't one of the things about COTF was a hp limit?

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Razor

But hang on. Wasn't one of the things about COTF was a hp limit?

Each CotF engine was homologated with V8SC, in the beginning & with every subsequent update.

NisMoAu submitted their updated engine just before Sandown..

The parity test apparently takes hp numbers at particular points in the rev range, and accumulates them to that ~20,000bhp number commonly quoted.

Not sure what happens if a team submits an engine beyond the existing upper limit for that cumulative number...

[Jam3s]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Not sure what happens if a team submits an engine beyond the existing upper limit for that cumulative number...

They get refused homologation and have to resubmit an engine which complies.

Anyway the article is rubbish with numbers pulled out of thin air. Also those HRT images are at least 3 years old.

[Axeman444]

Originally Posted by Jam3s

Anyway the article is rubbish with numbers pulled out of thin air.

We did find out that Spiderman works as the Holden Technical Director though.

Who engaged a French company? Were they one of Ludo's mates?

[Umai Naa]

Are Sodemo French?

Their services don't come cheap, that much I do know.

[Langers]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

The thing is, peak hp at 668bhp might be 'right' at one point in the rev range, but is peaky, with a very limited operating window.

Still doesn't make any sense given Nissan's statements that they are peak CFM limited due to valve and port size.

[one five five]

What chances this article is followed soon by a 'control engine' push in future weeks.......

[Umai Naa]

Having 3 different GM engines and 2 different Ford engines does not help the cause.

Accusations of Polestar ripping through 55 blocks, does not specify if they were at the track, or on the engine dyno back in Sweden. For those wondering where 55 supposedly obsolete blocks came from, they as well as cylinder heads were put back into production while the ink was still drying on the supply contracts. It wouldn't be worthwhile doing a small run, so there'd be quite a few that were sacrificed for the purposes of R&D.

[Langers]

Originally Posted by one five five

What chances this article is followed soon by a 'control engine' push in future weeks.......

Gen 2 should at least get some economies of scale for the Holden folk with a single engine builder. Honestly once people start moving to forced induction I expect the issue to be a lot easier to handle. Modern electronic boost controllers can very accurately bleed off excess boost at all load points.

Now if they then choose to spend squillions chasing better fuel economy that's a different story.

[Denosaur]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

Having 3 different GM engines and 2 different Ford engines does not help the cause.

Accusations of Polestar ripping through 55 blocks, does not specify if they were at the track, or on the engine dyno back in Sweden. For those wondering where 55 supposedly obsolete blocks came from, they as well as cylinder heads were put back into production while the ink was still drying on the supply contracts. It wouldn't be worthwhile doing a small run, so there'd be quite a few that were sacrificed for the purposes of R&D.

There's many ways to skin a cat, and each engine has it's own characteristics. Back when GRM built there own GM engines, there power came on later, whilst against the HRT motor, it had drive off the corner but then ran out of some top end puff. This was observed during a race at Oran Park....

I find it hard to believe that Polestar would go through that many blocks. If anyone has gone through that many, I would say either HRT or Prodrive. Geez, Prodrive back when they first landed attempted to run a motor they developed in the UK and it didn't work. HRT have 3 dyno's at there disposal at Clayton, that have seen more than enough action. On a tour there many years ago back at the height of their reign, we got told they spent many hours in the dyno, but sometimes it never translated to result once installed in the car.

[Denosaur]

Originally Posted by Langers

Modern electronic boost controllers can very accurately bleed off excess boost at all load points.

But will they have a control waste-gate???

[Casper]

NA V's turbo parity will not happen, end of story. The two have totally different power under the curve characteristics and anyone who thinks they can be made to be equal is dreaming or smoking something.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Casper

NA V's turbo parity will not happen, end of story. The two have totally different power under the curve characteristics and anyone who thinks they can be made to be equal is dreaming or smoking something.

I'm gravely concerned about this too.

So what do we end up with, air restrictors? Success ballast?

[Casper]

I don't think there is a practical answer but then I am not an engineer just someone who has enough experience to be dangerous. Lots of things make turbo motors complicated, turbine size, compressor size, variable vane, working inlet pressure, intercooler size and type, engine capacity just to name a few. Each motor type would have to be custom built and I still don't think it is possible to have true parity even then. We still haven't got into ECU control and that is another bag of worms altogether as a control ECU for across the board use with every turbo engine is not possible.

[Denosaur]

Originally Posted by Casper

I don't think there is a practical answer but then I am not an engineer just someone who has enough experience to be dangerous. Lots of things make turbo motors complicated, turbine size, compressor size, variable vane, working inlet pressure, intercooler size and type, engine capacity just to name a few. Each motor type would have to be custom built and I still don't think it is possible to have true parity even then. We still haven't got into ECU control and that is another bag of worms altogether as a control ECU for across the board use with every turbo engine is not possible.

I very much doubt that variable vane will be permitted when it's outlawed in nearly every other category around the world. ECU control will more than likely be heavily restricted as it is now. This isn't F1, and these guys are just as smart, but I think that they'll find it harder to come up with something special to find an advantage.

At the end of the day, they're going to chase the same power figures as they would see from the V8. Force feeding the engine is one thing, but keeping the engine together is another.....

[Casper]

It is not the power figure attained that is the problem, far from it in fact, it is the power under the curve. If a motor starts producing usable power 2000 rpm before another it does not need to produce as much peak power as the motor that started producing later. That is easily controlled in an NA situation with a fixed motor configuration but where a turbo 4 cylinder is competing with a turbo V6 against an inline five and a NA V8 the idea of parity is a fairy story.