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6 Mar 2016, 11:43 (Ref:3620534) | #26 | ||
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The SC rules also state that all laps led by the SC will be counted as race laps. Does seem to me that 9.4.7 could confuse someone who only ready that rule in isolation.
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“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue |
6 Mar 2016, 13:46 (Ref:3620551) | #27 | ||||
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Join Date: Oct 2004
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Quote:
I think the problem goes back to rules that are poorly written allowing different interpretations. After reading the rules for both normal and safety car starts, I think one issue is that the race was originally intended to start under normal conditions, and was switched to a safety car start after the completion of the formation lap. I can't see that situation covered by the rules ... and I could be wrong. Firstly, under 9.1.10 or 9.2.9 (normal start), 25 out of 26 cars were correctly positioned to be considered under starter's orders - 21 on the grid and 4 at pit exit. This is 3-5 seconds before the actual race start. Under normal conditions, the race is considered started when the red lights go out (9.1.11 or 9.2.10). Cars starting at pit exit may start the race only on the direction of an Official, and after the rest of the field has passed the Pit Lane exit (9.1.14 or 9.2.13) Surely this is what happened today, except under a safety car start. However, under a safety car start, when said red lights go out, the cars are said to be under starters orders (9.4.3), so there is the start of the muddle. As stated above, we then have the 9.4.7 and 9.4.7.1 rules. One literal interpretation of those 2 rules is that the 4 cars at pit exit prior to the safety car leaving on lap 1 is that those 4 cars should not have been under starter's orders until lap 6 ... ridiculous! And also not in keeping with the general intent of the starting from pit exit rules above. Some simple rewording and re-positioning of the 9.4 set of rules would resolve it? Possibly along the lines of: 1) Change the wording in 9.4.3 so it says the race is started under full course yellow behind the safety car (instead of under starters orders). 2) Leave 9.4.4, 9.4.5 and 9.4.6 as is. 3) Reword 9.4.7 to say "The race will be move from FCY to green flag condition when the leading Car crosses the Control Line at the end of that lap." 4) Move and reword 9.4.7.1 to become 9.4.3.1 Cars starting from Pit Lane exit may enter the circuit only on the direction of an Official, and after the rest of the field has passed the Pit Lane exit. And if required, add an extra timing point before 9.4.3 to differentiate cars coming under starter's orders, and the race starting under FCY. Just my opinions, I'm not a lawyer nor an expert interpreter of legalese. Quote:
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6 Mar 2016, 19:42 (Ref:3620603) | #28 | |
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6 Mar 2016, 21:08 (Ref:3620663) | #29 | ||
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Word is tomorrow it will be a 1 minute 20 penalty.
What a mess. |
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6 Mar 2016, 21:57 (Ref:3620681) | #30 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 422
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PLEASE HELP!!!! Where does one find the V8 Supercars rules and regulations on the web?
I seem to have looked everywhere? |
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6 Mar 2016, 22:20 (Ref:3620686) | #31 | ||
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“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue |
6 Mar 2016, 23:04 (Ref:3620692) | #32 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 249
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The whole thing was a bloody shambles.... VERY unprofessional looking.
It was a disaster right from the get-go with no-one even knowing if the race had started. Also was Bargs asleep for those first part of the race? Why does some simple stuff need to be investigated post race. Then it seemed that no-one knew the rules on the fuel dump thing, let alone the penalty. Personally I think its tough when a race is shortened. Maybe 140 litre if the race goes full distance, needs to be done on a percentage scale. (70 litres if the race is called at 50%, 105L @ 75% etc etc) The commentators either need to know the rules or shut up and as for changing the penalty after the event.... FFS what an amateur operation! I really expected more from such a big & supposedly professional outfit. |
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7 Mar 2016, 02:13 (Ref:3620722) | #33 | ||
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 469
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Does the fuel dump rules apply to all the races this year or just the longer races?
I also assume this isn't a rule in the ops manual, but a supplemental reg for the relevant race? |
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7 Mar 2016, 02:40 (Ref:3620727) | #34 | ||
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Perhaps Tim Schenken & Holden Bargs and all the other officials could take a leaf out of the NRL with its new Bunker, it has being given great praise after 1 round.
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2015 V8Supercar Champion #5 PDA Mark Frosty Winterbottom To Finish First, First you must Finish |
7 Mar 2016, 02:43 (Ref:3620729) | #35 | ||
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Quote:
Operations Manual However, during the Sunday race at the Clipsal 500 Adelaide, the Skycity Triple Crown Darwin and all SuperSprint events, as well as both races at the Castrol EDGE Townsville 400 and Coates Hire Sydney 500, a minimum quantity fuel drop exists. This means that for the specified race, all cars will need to deliver the correct amount of fuel during pit stops. Please see following table for further detail. |
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7 Mar 2016, 02:47 (Ref:3620730) | #36 | |
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I just watched a replay of the start again
Watched the lap counter in the coverage click over to lap 4, then about 30 seconds later it flicked to lap 5 My understanding is that originally a lap wasnt being counted under the first lap under the safety car (ie warm up lap), the timing started on the 2nd lap under safety car as Lap 1 of the race and then on the 5th lap under safety car they changed the timing from lap 4 of the race to lap 5 of the race |
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7 Mar 2016, 03:00 (Ref:3620735) | #37 | ||
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Join Date: Feb 2014
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Quote:
I've gone thru their 2016 Operations Manual from Div A to Div F and can't seem to find any mention of the penalty for not loading 140L of fuel. Can anyone please help? Also why was the penalty changed from 30 seconds to 60 seconds in the middle of the night. |
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7 Mar 2016, 03:22 (Ref:3620740) | #38 | ||
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Quote:
as per definitions in Division A |
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7 Mar 2016, 03:49 (Ref:3620748) | #39 | ||
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Quote:
No wonder Pye and Coulthard were confused at the end of the race. Imagine Tim Cendric ringing back to Roger Penske that we really cam second and third but now they have some secret penalty they have made up which drops us way down the field. And what of the viewing public perception. There was poor Crompton on live TV trying to find penalties that aren't in the book. You could hear his great frustration clearly as he made several attempts. And as I said above if it is all so clear why was it changed from 30 seconds to 60 seconds overnight? |
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7 Mar 2016, 04:02 (Ref:3620755) | #40 | |||
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Quote:
The stewards have a range of penalties available to them and apply the penalties depending on the circumstances - some are straightforward (such as pit lane speeding) some more involved. Where it falls down is when (as in this case) a commentator is trying to make a live call during a race on what penalty might be applied. That might be in regard to on track incidents, pit lane breaches etc. Clearly the results at the conclusion of the race had some penalties applied by the stewards - those results immediately after the race are never final and are subject to protests, further stewards hearings etc. Clearly after further investigation by the stewards the decision was taken that a penalty of 60 seconds was the go for those that didn't fuel. It's all due process but jeez it's not a good look - made worse by the commentators having NFI in regard to a number of rules through the race, clearly not getting good advice from their assistants and the wide range of confusion that often comes with severe weather conditions such as those seen on Sunday. |
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“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue |
7 Mar 2016, 04:05 (Ref:3620756) | #41 | ||
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Quote:
it was changed because the stewards found that the penalty was not significant enough, Not the first time this has happened, wont be the last, Stewards are always able to look at penalties post race This happens all through the legal structure of Australia |
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7 Mar 2016, 04:10 (Ref:3620757) | #42 | |||
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Quote:
The applicable penalties might be in the sup regs. In regard to the change of penalty after the race (not the middle of the night) please see my post above. Gotta say that it was a messy Sunday at Clipsal, no doubt about it. In my view it is made worse by the powers that be getting too cute on the time certain cutoff - it seems to only take a small delay or SC period to move a race into time certain status and to me that is just wrong. It time certain was based on an extra half hour over expected completion, that would probably make more sense. To me, the 140 litre requirement has always been something of a problem - if some engines aren't competitive on fuel consumption, then they need to adjust their engines and strategy accordingly. |
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“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue |
7 Mar 2016, 04:56 (Ref:3620764) | #43 | ||
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Put Schenken and Bargwanna in the bunker then lock the doors and cut off all communications.Schenken has a history of bringing out the safety car for entertainment value and Bargwanna should have been made to walk the plank after Van Gisbergen taking out Reynolds last year.
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7 Mar 2016, 05:02 (Ref:3620765) | #44 | ||
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Quote:
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7 Mar 2016, 07:35 (Ref:3620790) | #45 | |||
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Bill Tuckey would often write the Motorsport was the most misunderstood sport and sadly on Sunday we saw why. I have never seen compulsory pit stops add anything of value to any part of the sport. Set a race distance and let the teams manage how they get there. |
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"Your biggest auto race may one day become a Camaro playground", Chris Economaki, Bathurst 1979 |
7 Mar 2016, 07:46 (Ref:3620794) | #46 | ||
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Quote:
But it was clear to all that the race had started under safety car. just some teams wanted to argue about it and others dealt with it But that was the only issue. 140 litres in is the rules, everyone knew it, was well explained, some teams dealt with it better than others. Should we have that rule, Would prefer not to, but it has a purpose (although is the purpose still relevant (needs investigation)) But to have some halfarsed variations that may or may not affect the race is not the answer. That just makes things worse. It was right to start the race under SC (it sucks, but it was right), it was right to call it out again when they did, it was right to have a red flag, it was right to re-start when they did. No-one likes timed finishes, but they are a necessary evil. They got the call right in my opinion with SVG, but im 60:40 on it. (incidents like that are always grey) Did i mention that triple 8 messed up and LDM showed they understood the rules better (the richman and the pauper) |
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7 Mar 2016, 08:03 (Ref:3620798) | #47 | |
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After watching the race (recorded, had a prior engagement), mulling it over for 24 hours, and reading a lot of comments and articles, I think everything was probably handled as well as it could be.
The only thing that needs to change, in my very humble opinion, is the time certain finish. Why not start EVERY race with at least an hour extra at the end of the expected finish? The production team are more than capable of filling hours upon hours over the weekend with waffle, so why not build in a buffer around the most important part of the weekend? Ratings blah blah, any business person knows that repeat business if the best business. Keep the customers happy and they'll come back for more. Even if it hurts you a little in the short term. If that race hadn't been time certain, all other arguments, apart from maybe SVG v JC, would never have been brought up. |
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7 Mar 2016, 08:18 (Ref:3620803) | #48 | |||
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Quote:
If time-certain didn't come into play, the rest of the "issues" would have been non-issues. Mind you, I'm still not a fan of the whole compulsory fuel amount. |
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__________________
“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue |
7 Mar 2016, 08:53 (Ref:3620815) | #49 | ||
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Quote:
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3 Apr 2016, 10:42 (Ref:3629812) | #50 | ||
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Race control throws a yellow flag for a broken mirror on the track but doesn't throw the yellow for multiple cars parked at the end of a 200 kmh straight with oil on the track.
So is a finish under green flag conditions is more important than safety? |
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"Your biggest auto race may one day become a Camaro playground", Chris Economaki, Bathurst 1979 |
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