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25 Mar 2018, 20:50 (Ref:3810722) | #626 | |
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Telling people to go and watch what they are asking for should be everyone's stock answer
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27 Mar 2018, 00:18 (Ref:3811116) | #627 | |||
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Arms races have never bothered me, i consider it a part of racing and development. Sure it does limit the lifespan of a set of rules, but it keeps things different and everything gets a freshen up every few years. Look at the variety of winners and the variety of winning cars we had over the lifespan of Group A from 1985-1992, and then look at the variety of winning cars and drivers over the last 8 years of Supercars racing. |
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"The Great Race" 22 November 1960 - 21 July 1999 |
27 Mar 2018, 00:26 (Ref:3811118) | #628 | ||
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Apples to orange comparison. The longevity of the series speaks for the appeal of the rules for spectators and teams, historically. But now a paradigm shift is needed.
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk |
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27 Mar 2018, 00:52 (Ref:3811120) | #629 | ||
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No year under Group A had more than individual 4 winners, Where as we have had 5 winners just this year 5 brands have won in the last 5 years of COTF, compared to 3 in the last 5 years of Group A. I'm sorry, your glasses appear very Rosey |
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27 Mar 2018, 02:52 (Ref:3811134) | #630 | |||
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Maybe they are.
Point is I enjoyed Group A, and I don't enjoy modern day Supercars anywhere near as much or find it as interesting, just a personal opinion Quote:
Compare a 1985 BMW 635csi with a 1992 Nissan GTR, a 1985 Ford Mustang with a 1992 Ford Sierra, a 1985 Alfa GTV6 with a 1992 BMW M3, a 1985 Commodore with a 1992 Commodore, not to mention the Starion's, Rover's, Volvo's, Jaguar's and Mercedes etc.. that passed through in those eight seasons as well Now compare that with the variety we've seen in V8Supercars/Supercars in the last 8 seasons. A bit of variety for sure, but nowhere near as much. |
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"The Great Race" 22 November 1960 - 21 July 1999 |
27 Mar 2018, 04:13 (Ref:3811140) | #631 | |||
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And let's not forgot that from 2005 to 2015 Bathurst had the fewest number of different winning teams over any 10 year period (including the years Brock dominated) of the Great Race. Supercars have provided some wonderful moments over the years but also instances of reduced competition and little variety of winning teams. |
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"Your biggest auto race may one day become a Camaro playground", Chris Economaki, Bathurst 1979 |
27 Mar 2018, 04:38 (Ref:3811142) | #632 | ||
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2012 had 3 winning teams and 5 winning drivers, We made significant changes after this 1991 had 2 winning teams and 3 winning drivers, No year under Group A had more than 4 drivers win, We killed Group A the next year you just made random dates to suit your argument regarding bathurst winners Once again its really irrelevant. this is not a comparison of Group A to Supercars, Group A is dead, it wont be back, lessons were learnt and now we have a really popular series |
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27 Mar 2018, 06:46 (Ref:3811154) | #633 | |||
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Skaife Richards Longhurst Gibbs / Onslow 3 Teams and 5 drivers. Yes I have included all of the races held to make a valid comparison. Yes we have a popular series with the fans, which is great, but a series which is on the nose with the manufacturers. What needs to change to attract the manufacturers back to the sport? The following marques had factory or semi-factory in Australia representation during those failed Group A years. Not bad for an unpopular formula with no supporters. - Nissan - Holden - Toyota - Mitsubishi - Alfa Romeo - Volvo - Audi - BMW Maybe the question is how do we combine the strength of Group A (Manufacturer support) with the strength of Supercars (Fan support)? |
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"Your biggest auto race may one day become a Camaro playground", Chris Economaki, Bathurst 1979 |
27 Mar 2018, 08:40 (Ref:3811171) | #634 | ||
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And if you are going to drag in non ATCC and co drivers, then we should include dumbrell luff and youlden, sorry thats 8 drivers And i compared ATCC to aTCC, that is a valid comparison. Still Group A wont be replacing supercars. TCR is its modern replacement though. How about we talk about that |
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27 Mar 2018, 08:56 (Ref:3811174) | #635 | |||
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The racing was close but the cars do not move around on track and from the outside don't appear overly difficult to drive. The cars needs to appear as if the driver is earning his money. |
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"Your biggest auto race may one day become a Camaro playground", Chris Economaki, Bathurst 1979 |
27 Mar 2018, 09:04 (Ref:3811176) | #636 | |
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I just want to see good racing, with opportunities to overtake
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27 Mar 2018, 13:07 (Ref:3811236) | #637 | ||
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TCR-style (as in a road car modified with race suspension, roll cage, racing gearbox) but with rear-drive twin turbos V6s/I6s (and/or V8s with or without turbo), and a H-pattern gearbox would be fantastic. It's a bit of a pickle that some of the cars, like the Mercedes C63 don't actually come with a manual in the road model. Which would be a pickle to homologate. I personally wouldn't them to all paddle shift (like TCR) but unfortunately that is how it might have to be. :/ IMO, it's really important to move away from abstract V8 or turbo Altimas (aka Maximas) or Commodore (aka Vectras/Insignias), and use performance cars that you can actually buy (that you need to be a banker to buy one, is besides the point). To this end it may be necessary to ask Holden to leave the championship TBH, as a rear drive V8 Vectra is all a bit abstract... It wouldn't qualify for the "TCR-SuperSaloon" (say) anyway as the road car Commodore is not a V8 or twin-turbo rear wheel drive. |
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27 Mar 2018, 13:10 (Ref:3811237) | #638 | |
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27 Mar 2018, 20:39 (Ref:3811336) | #639 | ||
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Cant see any reason to get rid of the v8. I guess some people have big-motor envy and try and sell their flashiness to make up for it |
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27 Mar 2018, 23:34 (Ref:3811375) | #640 | |||
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It is a very difficult balancing act - good racing, reducing costs and attracting manufacturer support. Maybe it is not possible to have all of these three attributes. |
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"Your biggest auto race may one day become a Camaro playground", Chris Economaki, Bathurst 1979 |
27 Mar 2018, 23:46 (Ref:3811377) | #641 | ||
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Maybe you are right, especially as manufacturers move away from what the fans want |
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28 Mar 2018, 00:56 (Ref:3811386) | #642 | ||
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2012 is a great example of quality over quantity - I remember it being one of the most exciting seasons in recent memory, both in terms of on track action and the championship fight (for the first 6 months, until 888 broke the will of FPR). |
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28 Mar 2018, 01:10 (Ref:3811388) | #643 | ||
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however that is not really the issue, Change is being forced by things outside the product (lack of manufacturers). We may have change forced on us, but may be a step back (maybe even too far) |
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28 Mar 2018, 06:26 (Ref:3811413) | #644 | ||
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Brilliant.... If Nissan withdraw, as expected, and then Holden withdraw a year or two later, this "good product that didn't need changing" will really be up excrement creek without a paddle. Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 28 Mar 2018 at 06:33. |
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28 Mar 2018, 07:37 (Ref:3811424) | #645 | |
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Without manufacturers I'd argue Supercars would have to go through a bit of an austerity process, rather than disband entirely.
Is that palatable? |
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28 Mar 2018, 08:54 (Ref:3811436) | #646 | ||
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Im not convinced manufacturers are still relevant, all that is important is brands |
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28 Mar 2018, 09:06 (Ref:3811439) | #647 | ||
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28 Mar 2018, 09:10 (Ref:3811440) | #648 | ||
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VA stands for Virgin Australia, we havent referred too them as v8s for a few years now |
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28 Mar 2018, 09:39 (Ref:3811446) | #649 | |||
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My point is of the many fans of motor racing I know I cant think of one that says I am off to the VA's this weekend.... still referring to them rightly or wrongly as V8s or Supercars. I guess they will still be referred to as Supercars once the V8 exclusivity expires in the near future. Are you telling me that it is more interesting now with a likely minimal Ford presence, No Nissans, mostly Holdens, than it was when we had Mercedes, Volvo Nissan Ford and Holden involved? It was that increase in brands involved that rekindled my interest in Supercars, and that its demise has led to my declining interest in the category. I don't think I am alone in this. |
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28 Mar 2018, 10:43 (Ref:3811458) | #650 | ||
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Audience and TV was up in 2017 compared to 2016, decline might not be at the rate you are thinking |
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