[Race] Japanese Grand Prix 2018: Grand Prix Weekend Thread

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Greem

Turkey 2010, with Webber. Multi 21 in Malaysia 2013, with Webber.

There's just two rash decisions - both precipitated by being put under pressure, just by a teammate rather than a rival. Granted, not in a red car, but his history of rash decisions started in an RBR.

Turkey 2010 was 8 years ago and one could put that down to experience and since then he's won 4 WDCs in a row. Yes, there was Multi 21 in Malaysia 2013 but that's two occasions in 3 years. He's surpassed that this season.

[littleman]

Assuming they have another fast car next year,the only way Ferrari are going to beat Mercedes and Hamilton is to stick Alonso, Verstappen or maybe Ricciardo in the car.Alonso is available for goodness sake and probably wouldn't want a huge salary either....just the opportunity.

If that doesn't sit well with Vettel I'd just say "Prove us wrong".

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by littleman

Assuming they have another fast car next year,the only way Ferrari are going to beat Mercedes and Hamilton is to stick Alonso, Verstappen or maybe Ricciardo in the car.Alonso is available for goodness sake and probably wouldn't want a huge salary either....just the opportunity.

If that doesn't sit well with Vettel I'd just say "Prove us wrong".

Esteban Ocon and Charles Leclerc would work for me...

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Going to be fun watching people eat their words when Vettel demolishes Leclerc like he does Raikkonen.

Oh wait. People don't do that.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

Going to be fun watching people eat their words when Vettel demolishes Leclerc like he does Raikkonen.

Oh wait. People don't do that.

Okay well I hope Vettel puts some time in on the simulator because right now Leclerc in the second sister Ferrari would thrash him...

[Aysedasi]

Absolutely agree. Vettel has been a great driver but he's cracked under pressure recently. If Ferrari have any sense, they'll give Leclerc his head next season and won't make him play second fiddle. I wouldn't have said that 6-7 races ago, but the Ferrari top brass can see everything we're now seeing and the one thing they've never had is sentiment....

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

Going to be fun watching people eat their words when Vettel demolishes Leclerc like he does Raikkonen.

Oh wait. People don't do that.

You may be right, on the other hand, if Vettel isn't gifted his undisputed #1 status, your opinion may be wrong.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

Going to be fun watching people eat their words when Vettel demolishes Leclerc like he does Raikkonen.

Oh wait. People don't do that.

I managed to do that with Alonso (and so did many others) so yes, people do that.

Well, I didn't "eat my words" as such, I changed my opinion and admitted as much to other forum members who didn't view every post as a points scoring exercise.

Do you think you will ever view a different opinion, with facts added, as anything other than an attack on your position or way of thinking?

Oh wait. People don't do that.

Anyway: Vettel probably will dominate ItIsI, given that he's the incumbent Ferrari specialist, until such time as they turn their backs on him and start to nurture the young anointed one. I'll give him a season, and if I'm wrong I'll buy you a pint somewhere

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by littleman

Assuming they have another fast car next year,the only way Ferrari are going to beat Mercedes and Hamilton is to stick Alonso, Verstappen or maybe Ricciardo in the car.Alonso is available for goodness sake and probably wouldn't want a huge salary either....just the opportunity.

If that doesn't sit well with Vettel I'd just say "Prove us wrong".

Alonso back to Ferrari ???

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Okay well I hope Vettel puts some time in on the simulator because right now Leclerc in the second sister Ferrari would thrash him...

Three car teams? When was that announced? Who's in the first?


edit: What the heck is "Multi 21" and what's it's derivation?

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by jimclark

Three car teams? When was that announced? Who's in the first?


edit: What the heck is "Multi 21" and what's it's derivation?

Multi 21 was a team order from Red Bull for their cars Webber (2) and Vettel (1) to hold position in the 2013 Malaysian GP. It would have been Multi 12 I assume if the order was reversed.

Much like Pironi and Villeneuve in 82, one naughty driver (Vettel) decided to ignore this and pass his teammate for the lead and win. Causing Vettel to become public enemy number one to the entire nation of Australia, if he already wasn’t after the previous Red Bull years!

[Razzzor]

I think we're being a bit hard on Vettel. Remeber a few years back the internet all claimed Vettel can't pass people. He went from 9th to 4th, then went for the gap on Max for 3rd. That's pretty remarkable. If he'd done that pass, regardless of if he had anything for Merc (which he wouldn't have because Kimi couldn't even keep up with the RB's), then he would have been DOTR. Still he then came back through the field again and made plenty of passes without being squeezed into a crash.

Max left a gap, Seb went for it and Max then basically closed it forcing Seb onto the kerb. Maybe he was always going to run wide anyway, but Max didn't really give him enough room. It's a classic case of if you only give the inside car 50% space, he's going to have to climb the kerb, and then probably get thrown off it. But that's racing, no ones fault and I don't think Seb should be to blame for that incident even if Max had spun instead. Just a case of very heavy defense against very aggressive offence, and that's what we want to see. It's a shame for Vettel he's worst off again as in Monza.

The thing is Ferrari don't have the fastest car. The media keep coming into each round claiming they're favourites, Merc keep talking them up like they've got the best car and it's only their amazing god child Lulu performing miracles like he's the great saviour of mankind. But that's a bunch of a crap. Merc always had the best car, Ferrari have been weaker on their tyres all year long. Now just because the engine has a bit more HP suddenly it's the best car? Bullcrap.

All the races Vettel did win, Hamilton was right with him. The races Merc win like Singapore, Vettel is 40 seconds and Kimi 53 seconds behind them. On a Ferrari track! That's what 0.8sec per lap faster! And we're supposed to believe Merc have only just found that speed? Even back in May at Spain Lulu pulled out 27 secs over Vettel. It wasn't even close back then, and I suspected it was over after that race it's just up to Merc to get the setup right at each race and Ferrari won't be a match for them. Sure enough.

There's been some races where Ferrari found a little something, but overall they're still no match for Merc and Lulu at the moment doesn't even have to try, he's cruising. Vettel is making mistakes because he does have to try, he's overdriving to try and stay in the fight. Kimi isn't making mistakes, but he's also slow. Would we rather have a mistake-free Vettel that farts around in 3rd to 6th and can't win anything?

[Razzzor]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Esteban Ocon and Charles Leclerc would work for me...

I'm still not that sold on Ocon, I don't think he's much more than another Bottas. Ever since that Gp3 season where he could only win 1 out of 18 races against Ghiotto, then the disastrous DTM half-season, then against Perez who he is pretty equal with. We're assuming he'll improve, but if he's only ever as good as Perez, well the top teams certainly aren't knocking on Sergio's door, he's mainly in F1 because of the money he brings.

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Multi 21 was a team order from Red Bull for their cars Webber (2) and Vettel (1) to hold position in the 2013 Malaysian GP. It would have been Multi 12 I assume if the order was reversed.

Much like Pironi and Villeneuve in 82, one naughty driver (Vettel) decided to ignore this and pass his teammate for the lead and win. Causing Vettel to become public enemy number one to the entire nation of Australia, if he already wasn’t after the previous Red Bull years!

Oh. 'Don't remember that at all. Thanks.

[Akrapovic]

Multi-21 wasn't the first instance of the Red Bull drivers refusing to hold position. Webber did it at Silverstone a couple of years earlier. It was amazing how that isn't talked about in the same light as Multi-21.

[jimclark]

Prolly why I don't remember "it". I don't pay such things too much attention.

[Kempi]

Pretty good summary, Razzor. I agree with it but still would argue that while some mistakes are down to overdriving the car (especially those in quali), Vettel should keep his cool more in the infight situations. It's not that he cannot overtake but sometime he gets overanxious.

[S griffin]

People are saying he didn't make as many mistakes at RBR, because he had the best car. I don't think it's that though. Driving for Ferrari is completely different from driving for any other team. You are not just driving for Ferrari, but for the whole of Italy! Maybe it's that pressure that is too much for him

[wnut]

I would personally love to know what advantage Fred gained here that required a penalty:

https://twitter.com/F1/status/1048909654464421888

Then Mr Whiting thinks he can defend it

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/23151...-comments.html

and yet this and others were not even worth reporting to the stewards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI-nMx-gnTU

I think Mr. Whiting is a proper Charlie.

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by S griffin

You are not just driving for Ferrari, but for the whole of Italy! Maybe it's that pressure that is too much for him

Obviously, 'can't say it's so for everyone, but, any other drivers I ever spoke with all agreed whilst hustling your car, one is fully focused only on the job at hand; in a different zone altogether. I can't imagine that at this level, one is not. 'Why one doesn't want too much radio communication (well...'cept in NASCAR...but that's a different story...).
Any other time, yeah. On the track, at full chat, no.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by wnut

I would personally love to know what advantage Fred gained here that required a penalty:

https://twitter.com/F1/status/1048909654464421888

Then Mr Whiting thinks he can defend it

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/23151...-comments.html

and yet this and others were not even worth reporting to the stewards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI-nMx-gnTU

I think Mr. Whiting is a proper Charlie.

I haven't seen any video clip that shows where Alonso rejoined the track in relation to Stroll. Presumably he was ahead. As he rubbed his front wheel against Stroll's rear in the first incident (which lead to Stroll's penalty) he was behind before the chicane. Therefore he gained a place by cutting the chicane.

I would agree that the blatant cutting in Mexico was awful. The stewards must have been asleep under their sombreros to not notice that.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

You conveniently forgot they did punish Verstappen for that (stupid decision) but as usual Hamilton can get away with anything.

[wnut]

Vettel wants sit down with Max and have a chat.

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/23135...rivately-.html

"I did my best not to hit him, but he braked and steered his car further to the inside of the corner."

In all fairness Max does seem to run into a lot of people, an interesting statistic would be the number of people who have managed to pass him without contact against those who, umm let us say did not.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by wnut

Vettel wants sit down with Max and have a chat.

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/23135...rivately-.html

"I did my best not to hit him, but he braked and steered his car further to the inside of the corner."

In all fairness Max does seem to run into a lot of people, an interesting statistic would be the number of people who have managed to pass him without contact against those who, umm let us say did not.

He does, but he didn't on that occasion. What supercilious nonsense. I'd have had more sympathy for Vettel if he'd just held his hands up and admitted it was a rash move on his part. He'd have had Max's guts for bright red garters had the roles been reversed....

[Akrapovic]

The problem Max has is similar to Grosjean and Maldonado. The accidents were not always their fault, but when you're constantly getting involved in accidents with others, you have to ask why that's happening. Even if it isn't your fault, often there is something you could've done differently.

Good example was Lewis vs Pastor at Valencia many years back. Lewis made a great pass and then felt the need to close the door on Pastor. The accident was 100% Pastors fault, but everybody (except Lewis) knew exactly what was about to happen - Pastor was going to run into him. Lewis could've avoided it, but put himself in a situation of being run into by Pastor. In that situation there's no point in saying Lewis is right and he has the high ground - the result is the same, he's out of the race.

Similar situation with Max. He does get into a lot of bother. Some of it is his fault. Some of it isn't. But even when it isn't, you have to think "Why is this happening to me?".

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

The problem Max has is similar to Grosjean and Maldonado. The accidents were not always their fault, but when you're constantly getting involved in accidents with others, you have to ask why that's happening. Even if it isn't your fault, often there is something you could've done differently.

Good example was Lewis vs Pastor at Valencia many years back. Lewis made a great pass and then felt the need to close the door on Pastor. The accident was 100% Pastors fault, but everybody (except Lewis) knew exactly what was about to happen - Pastor was going to run into him. Lewis could've avoided it, but put himself in a situation of being run into by Pastor. In that situation there's no point in saying Lewis is right and he has the high ground - the result is the same, he's out of the race.

Similar situation with Max. He does get into a lot of bother. Some of it is his fault. Some of it isn't. But even when it isn't, you have to think "Why is this happening to me?".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJe7GI9C7vU

It doesn't look like Lewis closed the door.