[Official] Turkish Grand Prix 2020: Grand Prix Weekend - Round 14 of 17

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

Did anyone else notice the worn inters still had lots of tread on the outside third and the inside shoulder? Over-inflated due to Pirelli's minimum pressures maybe?

I thought this had occurred through a combination of running the tyres for so long, and there being so little moisture on the track, that the temperatures had got higher than normal for an inter. As a result the pressures were a bit higher than expected.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Except that if your favourite driver and or team doesn't win or do well, then it can effect the end result and make it less entertaining.

If we're honest with ourselves, it shouldn't make it less 'entertaining'. Less to our liking maybe if our 'favourite' has a 'mare, but personally I switch 'favourites' fairly regularly through a season. I confess I was rooting for Lance in that race, but also keen to see Checo do well. I always watch out for Lando and George, but I can easily smile when Danny Ric does well, because, well, he's a joy to watch when he's pleased with himself. I enjoy watching Hamilton when he does what he did yesterday, not so much when he just leads easily from lights to flag. As I said before, I was even pleased to see Seb showing some guts and good driving as well. All of these things add up to entertainment to me and happily I'm not likely to sulk in the corner whoever wins (or loses).

[The Fat Clerk]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

If we're honest with ourselves, it shouldn't make it less 'entertaining'. Less to our liking maybe if our 'favourite' has a 'mare, but personally I switch 'favourites' fairly regularly through a season. I confess I was rooting for Lance in that race, but also keen to see Checo do well. I always watch out for Lando and George, but I can easily smile when Danny Ric does well, because, well, he's a joy to watch when he's pleased with himself. I enjoy watching Hamilton when he does what he did yesterday, not so much when he just leads easily from lights to flag. As I said before, I was even pleased to see Seb showing some guts and good driving as well. All of these things add up to entertainment to me and happily I'm not likely to sulk in the corner whoever wins (or loses).

Couldn't agree more

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

If we're honest with ourselves, it shouldn't make it less 'entertaining'. Less to our liking maybe if our 'favourite' has a 'mare, but personally I switch 'favourites' fairly regularly through a season. I confess I was rooting for Lance in that race, but also keen to see Checo do well. I always watch out for Lando and George, but I can easily smile when Danny Ric does well, because, well, he's a joy to watch when he's pleased with himself. I enjoy watching Hamilton when he does what he did yesterday, not so much when he just leads easily from lights to flag. As I said before, I was even pleased to see Seb showing some guts and good driving as well. All of these things add up to entertainment to me and happily I'm not likely to sulk in the corner whoever wins (or loses).

I don't have favourite teams or drivers anymore, I gave that up long ago but I do remember when I did, that if either team or driver didn't do well, it would put a crimp on the race, no matter how entertaining. If my football team looses, it's a bit more than a crimp.

[Aysedasi]

True enough. Back in the Senna/Prost days I had the hump when Prost won and laughed like a drain when he hit bad luck (like that day he fell off in the rain on the warm-up lap..... ). But those days are long gone and I've been far more partisan watching sportscars over the last few years...

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

True enough. Back in the Senna/Prost days I had the hump when Prost won and laughed like a drain when he hit bad luck

I was the exact opposite!

I bet you were a Steve Ovett man too huh? I was always Coe...

[chavez]

Originally Posted by S griffin

But I think it shows he still has much to learn. He’s done a very good job this season, but maybe hasn’t quite got the racing brain other top drivers have yet.

Max is in his sixth season of F1.

How much more time should we give Max?

Of course he will go on to win races, but he is not World Champion material - at least not yet.

He continues to remind me of Andrea deCesaris, fast but seemingly unable to control his emotions and learn from mistakes, but Max has the luxury of being in a car that is capable of winning on some days.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by chavez

Max is in his sixth season of F1.

How much more time should we give Max?

Of course he will go on to win races, but he is not World Champion material - at least not yet.

He continues to remind me of Andrea deCesaris, fast but seemingly unable to control his emotions and learn from mistakes, but Max has the luxury of being in a car that is capable of winning on some days.

May I make a suggestion?

Could you take a look again at some of Max's performances, not just the wins, and then come back and tell us what it is that reminds you of De Cesaris.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by chunterer

May I make a suggestion?

Could you take a look again at some of Max's performances, not just the wins, and then come back and tell us what it is that reminds you of De Cesaris.

Does he need to go further back than the Turkish GP, or will that do?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Does he need to go further back than the Turkish GP, or will that do?

Depends on how good their memory is.

Do yiu think Turkey is an accurate barometer of Max's ability?

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by chavez

Max is in his sixth season of F1.

How much more time should we give Max?

It’s not just number of races. It’s just age, maturity will come from more than just lappery.

Although there is a possibility his character won’t become more rounded, but it happens to most.

Of course he will go on to win races, but he is not World Champion material - at least not yet.

Yes, even an immature Max is better than most. It might mean he loses a close fight because of being silly, but he might make it up by just being fast.

He continues to remind me of Andrea deCesaris, fast but seemingly unable to control his emotions and learn from mistakes, but Max has the luxury of being in a car that is capable of winning on some days.

I don’t think he’s like deCesaris at all. He’s much faster (relative to today’s competition). Not sure the attitude is the same either, although maybe deCasaris would be more arrogant child if he’d made a splash like Max has.

[Akrapovic]

Depends. What do you mean by ability? (Sorry I realise that comes across as nit picking or deconstructing your post, but it isn't how I mean it to sound).

Is it an accurate barometer of his driving ability? As in, what he can do? No, it isn't. But Turkey also wasn't an accurate barometer of Riccardo, for example. He also has the ability to do much better than he did in Turkey. So in that regard, no.

Do I think it's an accurate representation of the overall state of Max Verstappen as a driver? As a whole package? Yes. He gets into needless confrontations, puts everything at risk when it doesn't need to, and often comes out much worse than he should given his raw ability as a driver. Turkey was just a great example of that.

See: Turkey Race, Turkey Qualifying Sulk, Portimao Stroll clash. Or being demoted off the podium in Mexico. Or overtaking off the track at COTA and being demoted again. Or giving himself a flat tyre trying to run Lewis off the road in Bahrain. Or driving into the side of Vettel in China. Or even failing to read Ocons sign posted stupidity in Brazil and then being a child and pushing Ocon about in the garage like a bully. His reaction to most of these incidents was that he was right. And that's why he doesn't learn.

I'm not the biggest on F1 details. That's just a list off the top of my head. I'm sure others could add more.

[Adam43]

Ah, but Verstappen race was ruined by a wing adjustment:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/15...ppen-in-turkey
Or something.

[Taxi645]

Striking how selective we can be in supporting our opinions. He messes up one race this season (still finishes 6th btw) and it's all rubbish again straight away.

Yes he still has that side to him. He's gotten it more under control over the years and this year it has really bitten him once, resulting in a 6th place. Every other time he did not have a mechanical he finished on the podium, but feel free to weigh the facts the way you see fit.

[chavez]

Originally Posted by chunterer

May I make a suggestion?

Could you take a look again at some of Max's performances, not just the wins, and then come back and tell us what it is that reminds you of De Cesaris.

Andreas had the speed, but never a good car. So Max certainly has the advantage there.

However Andreas' speed was never in doubt, Spa '83 is a perfect example.

Andreas crashed often, seemingly unable to learn that over driving was not the answer.

Max is an exciting driver, as was Andreas, but the very good Formula One drivers, those that become World Champion are predicable and unrelenting in their consistency. Their worst day is not that far removed from their best day.

For both Max and Andreas their worst days are far removed from their best.

Max will give us years of entertainment and perhaps many more wins, but I cannot see the making of a World Champion - not yet at least and six years is a long way into an Formula One career to drop the ball so badly as he did this weekend.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Ah, but Verstappen race was ruined by a wing adjustment:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/15...ppen-in-turkey
Or something.

Ah, now I get it.... everyone in the parade was out of step except for Max.

[steve_r]

Verstappen is a race winner and the only one out of 18 drivers who regularly can get in among the ultra dominant Mercedes. DeCesaris was a journeyman. I'm sure that there are better comparisons out there that can be used to make whatever point is supposed to have been made.

A team owner is going to prefer to have a very fast driver who maybe does not have a fully rounded / matured personality yet, instead of a model citizen who always says the right thing and is never grumpy but is at best half a second off the pace.

Next week people will be probably complaining that none of the drivers have character, not like in the "good old days". Yet when a current driver like Hamilton or Verstappen says or does something outside of the corporate normality the same people will complain.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Verstappen is a race winner and the only one out of 18 drivers who regularly can get in among the ultra dominant Mercedes. DeCesaris was a journeyman. I'm sure that there are better comparisons out there that can be used to make whatever point is supposed to have been made.

A team owner is going to prefer to have a very fast driver who maybe does not have a fully rounded / matured personality yet, instead of a model citizen who always says the right thing and is never grumpy but is at best half a second off the pace.

Next week people will be probably complaining that none of the drivers have character, not like in the "good old days". Yet when a current driver like Hamilton or Verstappen says or does something outside of the corporate normality the same people will complain.

I think there's plenty of drivers with character. Lewis, Vettel, Danny Ric, Lando, Russell, Leclerc. They're all absolute characters. They just aren't the sort of character who'll attack another driver in a garage.

Looking forward to the next Max Wet Weather Masterclass. This one was a treat.

[steve_r]

Not like in the good old days of Schumacher, Piquet, Gachot etc.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Ah, but Verstappen race was ruined by a wing adjustment:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/15...ppen-in-turkey
Or something.

Those pesky wing adjustments.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Not like in the good old days of Schumacher, Piquet, Gachot etc.

I think I missed something. Someone once did a bad thing, therefore it justifies Maxs strops. Seems like there's plenty of personality on the grid that doesn't involve Max. Lets be careful not to mix up "having a personality" with "having a bad attitude".

Maybe we should compare Max to Gachot more often.

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I think I missed something. Someone once did a bad thing, therefore it justifies Maxs strops. Seems like there's plenty of personality on the grid that doesn't involve Max. Lets be careful not to mix up "having a personality" with "having a bad attitude".

Maybe we should compare Max to Gachot more often.

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

They just aren't the sort of character who'll attack another driver in a garage.

Max once did a bad thing, and it is OK for you to bring this up on this thread. The others I mentioned also once did a bad thing, but it is not OK for me to point this out?

Max was understandably grumpy because he missed out on what he saw as an opportunity to set pole and potentially win. He did nothing more than a slightly amusing sulk. I can see characteristics in him that I personally don't really like, but which are mirrored in many other drivers who went on to be legends in the sport. If you want to see a bad loser, then many multiple F1 WDCs were really bad losers.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chavez

Max is in his sixth season of F1.

How much more time should we give Max?

Of course he will go on to win races, but he is not World Champion material - at least not yet.

He continues to remind me of Andrea deCesaris, fast but seemingly unable to control his emotions and learn from mistakes, but Max has the luxury of being in a car that is capable of winning on some days.

I found some interesting stats for the late Andrea de Cesaris. He drove for 10 different teams, entered 214 Grands Prix, started 208, which is the most Grand Prix starts without a win, as well as having the most DNFs, 136. He also holds the record for the most consecutive DNFs, 18 from the 1985 French GP to the 1986 Portuguese GP and the most consecutive DNFs in a single season, 12 in 1987 from Manaco - Japan.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Max once did a bad thing, and it is OK for you to bring this up on this thread. The others I mentioned also once did a bad thing, but it is not OK for me to point this out?

I'm lost. You said someone will complain drivers don't have character. I said you can have personality without a bad attitude. So then we listed drivers who had similar bad attitudes before?

I dunno. I don't understand the point and I think we'll bore people if we keep going so I'll sum up my position:

Max has a ridiculously bad attitude, with an arrogance level so high that he continues to lack the ability to learn from his mistakes, because in his eyes he doesn't make any. He has a driving ability that is possibly up there with Lewis, but lacks the maturity to harness this effectively. We continue to hear about his "wet weather master class" as goes backwards off the circuit, 40 seconds behind Lewis. We continue to hear about how Max will "learn from this" as he gets into stupid Free Practice incidents that he doesn't need to be involved with. And we keep hearing about how he'll mature eventually - 5 years into his time in F1.

Max is his father, but with considerably more driving ability. Turkey was a peak example of it.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Max once did a bad thing, and it is OK for you to bring this up on this thread. The others I mentioned also once did a bad thing, but it is not OK for me to point this out?

I think the point was that the previous actions of others aren’t an excuse. Poor show from all.

I agree that it would be nice for Max to grow up a bit and lose the bad attitude.

However, there aren’t many drivers I’d have in my team over him.