[Driver] The GOAT - Grand Final - Senna vs Hamilton

[crmalcolm]

And after 64 entrants, whittled down to the final two, it is Senna vs Hamilton.

A lot has been said about these two drivers, including Hamilton himself regarding his idol when growing up. So is it fitting that the bracket comes down to these two going head-to-head? Interestingly - these two were not the #1 and #2 seeds going into the competition.

Who do you vote as the greater?

Top Gear compared them:

Everyone loves a hypothetical battle. In theory, anyway. And when it comes to F1, a new conjectural face-off is looming at the end of the pit lane. At the Russian grand prix this weekend, Lewis Hamilton passed Ayrton Senna’s all-time win record, the Brit clocking his 42nd victory to take him one clear of the Brazilian. Which raises the intriguing question: who would come first in a race between Hamilton and Senna?

Words: Joe Holding

It’s not often an F1 driver passes a record held by the great Brazilian. Hamilton’s win in Russia made the Brit only the fourth man in history to collect more winner’s trophies than the very driver he idolised as a youngster.

The Eighties and Nineties belonged to Senna and Prost. The millennium was Schumacher’s. 2015 is Hammer Time.

That takes some doing. Yes, Hamilton has the fastest car on the grid today. Yes, he has the measure of his teammate. But why should those factors count against him in the public perception? If anything, manoeuvring into a winning position is the greatest skill that goes unnoticed in motorsport. It goes some way to explaining why someone of Fernando Alonso’s calibre hasn’t won the world championship for ten years.

Make no mistake, Hamilton will have earned the right to be considered among the very best, as and when he collects his third world title. The Eighties and Nineties belonged to Senna and Prost. The millennium was Schumacher’s. 2015 is Hammer Time.

There’s only so much you can derive from the numbers when it comes to working out who might win in a head-to-head encounter on track. Nonetheless, pitting Hamilton’s stats against Senna’s offers some interesting insights.

After the Japanese GP, both drivers had recorded stats of 41 race wins from 162 entries. A direct points comparison is difficult for a number of reasons, because of changes to F1’s scoring system over the years. This means we’ll be relying on good old percentages to see how they match up.

Looking at the points they scored over the course of their F1 careers, Senna managed 614 from a possible 1491, giving him a maximum conversion rate of 41%. Hamilton on the other hand is better in this department, claiming 54% of the 3295 points he could have won since 2007.

Improved reliability is a big factor here, as is the extension of the points on offer in a single grand prix. Today the top ten will add to their championship tally. When Senna arrived in the mid-80s, seventh or lower scored you nothing.

More revealing is how their two drivers’ teammates fared in the same period. Hamilton’s fellow drivers logged 47 per cent of the maximum points up for grabs – just 7 per cent behind Lewis – whereas Senna’s managed just 28 per cent. That puts the Brazilian 13 per cent ahead, a gap nearly twice as big as Hamilton’s. Put simply, Senna outscored guys driving the same car more heavily than Hamilton has done to date.

There’s a similar theme when we analyse wins and top threes. During his career, Hamilton’s teammates have taken the chequered flag 14 per cent of the time, and made 43 per cent of the available podiums. Senna’s teammates, meanwhile, won only 12 per cent of the races he featured in, claiming third or better just 31 per cent of the time.

This suggests one of two things. Either Senna had worse teammates (unlikely given that he raced with the likes of Alain Prost and Gerhard Berger), or that he was slightly better at getting absolutely everything from a car.

The latter of these seems the likely explanation, given what we know about the three-time world champion’s legendary qualifying ability. Senna’s 65 poles include the infamous lap at Monaco in 1988, where the McLaren driver was an incredible 1.4 seconds faster than his teammate.

“That day, I suddenly realised that I was no longer driving conscious, and I was in a different dimension for me,” said Senna. “The circuit for me was a tunnel, which I was just going, going, going… And I realised I was well beyond my conscious understanding.”

Hamilton’s one-lap pace is arguably the best of the current crop, but even on his most magnificent days, is it one-point-four-seconds-faster-than-a-four-time-champion-on-a-short-circuit quick? Good luck arguing that one.

Senna remains perhaps the most venerated driver in the history of the sport, the likes of Jarno Trulli, Rubens Barrichello, Mika Hakkinen and Michael Schumacher rating him as the greatest racer of all time.

Even now – approaching a third world championship – there aren’t many who yet talk about Hamilton in quite these terms. For the time being at least. Add a couple more championships into the equation, and that may begin to change.

However, it shouldn’t be forgotten that there was a darker side to Senna; a threshold where ruthlessness became recklessness in the heat of wheel-to-wheel action.

As Alain Prost put it all those years ago: “Ayrton has a small problem. He thinks that he can’t kill himself.”

Such will to win was what propelled Senna to greatness, to the heights he reached during his career. But it also drove him to the worst of his lows.

Think back to Japan 1990. Going into the grand prix, a non-finish for Prost would hand Senna his second world title with a race to spare. And so, seconds after lights out, the championship leader made sure of his rival’s retirement by ploughing into the back of him, putting both their lives at risk in the process.

It would take the McLaren driver a year to admit that the move was deliberate.

True, Lewis Hamilton has had his fair share of collisions during his time – as Jenson Button, Felipe Massa and several others will attest – but have any of them been the result of such blatant foul play?

The 30-year-old has outgrown a certain recklessness of his early years, and it would be hard to imagine him running into Nico Rosberg on purpose to claim a championship a la Senna, a la Schumacher.

The fact that Hamilton’s two world titles to date weren’t won so contentiously must surely count in his favour, though the devilish streak remains, for many, part of the complex Senna magic.

The greatest racers, it seems, have the ability to shape their own storylines.

It’s not mere victories that define the best drivers. The stories that unfolded along the way are equally important to the way racers are remembered. The greatest racers, it seems, have the ability to shape their own storylines.

For Hamilton, the first two years of his career were the most unforgettable, prior to a frustrating run of seasons at a declining McLaren outfit.

His triumph at Interlagos in 2008 – securing his first title on virtually the last corner of the season – ranks among the greatest dramas the sport has seen since its inception.

What made the narrative yet more special was Hamilton’s capitulation twelve months earlier, when a retirement and a seventh place handed the title to Kimi Raikkonen on a plate in the Brit’s debut season.

For Senna, two highlights remain seared on the memory, beyond his definitive successes in Monaco. The first was in Spa in 1992, when Senna leapt out of his car in the middle of a practice session to help fellow driver Erik Comas, who had been knocked unconscious in an accident.

As Martin Brundle told TGTV a while ago: “That’s the paradox of Ayrton Senna, isn’t it? In that he was clearly a fantastic human being. He cared about people in Brazil, he cared about racing drivers. I mean he was mortally hurt when Ratzenberger died the day before he died. But then he would crash Alain Prost off the race track and put both their lives at risk…”

The other was Senna’s maiden win in the Brazilian Grand Prix in 1991. A failing transmission meant the Brazilian had to finish the race in sixth gear alone, requiring an immense physical effort as Riccardo Patrese closed him down in the final laps of the race.

Senna celebrated wildly as he crossed the line 2.9 seconds ahead of the Italian, but had to be lifted out of the car as exhaustion rendered him unable to move under his own strength. He had quite literally left everything out on the track.

Such scenes are unlikely to be repeated nowadays, largely because F1 cars no longer represent the same physical challenge they did even a decade ago. Whether or not that’s a good thing is another debate altogether, but the truth is that today’s cars and conditions rarely give drivers the chance to demonstrate their athleticism in quite so obvious fashion.

In truth, such changes mean the greats of the sport can only truly be judged against their eras. Hamilton could win four, five, six world championships, but still never achieve the same feats of heroism as his idol in the eyes of those who are old enough remember both.

Nor might he match Senna’s reputation for eloquence and honesty. Today, F1 teams’ PR machines are as well-engineered as their cars, making drivers appear more sterile and repetitive than those of previous eras. Such airbrushed polish may not help Hamilton’s bid for sporting immortality.

The Briton is aware that comparisons will be drawn with Senna now he has passed his hero, in one statistical aspect at least.

“I am so proud to be in a position to emulate him,” said Lewis after the grand prix in Japan. “At the same time, though, I am also aware that if he had not passed away he would have continued and won so many more races and championships, because he was that good.

“Now I am at the stage where I am getting to the levels he was at, it feels a little like a relay race - that I will be picking the baton up for him and carrying it for the both of us from now on.”

Make of that what you will. The reality is that in this hypothetical race of ours – wheel to wheel, lap after lap on a track that exists only in our own heads – will only ever be a dream, albeit a rather compelling one.

[Aysedasi]

From the very start, it could only be Senna for me. And whatever the outcome of the poll, I will remain steadfast in my belief. Not backed by stats of course as those were cut short for Senna. I'm not blind to his 'darker' side as people are wont to call it, but for me, he was what I wanted to see in an F1 driver, a 100% committed racer, blindingly fast, always exciting to watch and with a passionate desire to win.

[chillibowl]

i think that is great that you still have the same love and respect for Senna after all these years. i wonder if 20 odd years after LH is done, will i still feel the same way about his career?

but for now its Ham and also for me the match up would not have mattered. i was always gonna pick LH by a clear margin.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i think that is great that you still have the same love and respect for Senna after all these years. i wonder if 20 odd years after LH is done, will i still feel the same way about his career?

but for now its Ham and also for me the match up would not have mattered. i was always gonna pick LH by a clear margin.

Well, with my forum name, how could I choose anyone else....?

Even now, I find it hard to see any footage of that fateful Imola day. I watched the Murray Walker programme the other night and the section dealing with Murray having to continue to commentate after the accident was really hard viewing for me.

[BTCC frog]

I think Lewis Hamilton is the GOAT, so I am glad he has made it to the final. It feels strange to me voting for him as ten years ago, when I started watching F1, I thought Vettel and Alonso were a class above Hamilton. He was just as fast as them, but his silly incidents and mistakes meant I never thought I would one day be calling him the greatest of all time. But despite that, he has really matured as a driver, and very rarely makes mistakes now (the two incidents with Albon were just about his fault, but both were tiny mistakes that just had disastrous consequences for Albon, who was not without fault himself. And I don't blame him for the Monza pitlane incident). Maybe my vote doesn't mean much having never seen any of the other GOAT contenders (Schumacher - except in his return, Clark, Fangio, Stewart, Prost, Senna) live, but I have done a lot of research into their careers. Another thing that is in Hamilton's favour is the GOATs of other sports, that are easier to define. Take the 100m sprint - the fastest runners have generally got slightly quicker over time, so Usain Bolt is around half a second quicker than the fastest runners 30-40 years before him. But is it the same with F1 drivers? I'm not so sure - the likes of Fangio and Clark were very good and would almost certainly be battling for championships if they had lived sixty years later (assuming they'd even be in F1, and wouldn't have been passed over in favour of a pay driver).

For me, the only real contenders for the title of F1 GOAT should be Juan Manuel Fangio, Jim Clark, Jackie Stewart, Alain Prost, Ayrton Senna, Michael Schumacher and Lewis Hamilton (with Moss, Ascari and Alonso just behind). But I think Hamilton edges it.

Thanks, crmalcolm, for running this.

[VIVA GT]

My vote goes to Hamilton. They're both exceptional drivers but the positivity of Hamilton's results and (for me) the un-necessary ruthlessness of some of Senna's on track actions did it for me.

[Gerard C]

I dont expect from any gladiator to enter the arena with a bouquet of flowers or chocolate eggs instead of a saber and a shield. For exactly the same reasons as yours, my vote goes to Senna in spite of rash moments, kwowing Hamilton had some too. At the highest world level is it possible to remain an angel anytime?

Bearing in mind this poll is a game only, just for fun, and a very good occasion to express different opinions remaining good blokes.

[FIRE]

Hamilton based on titles.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

I dont expect from any gladiator to enter the arena with a bouquet of flowers or chocolate eggs instead of a saber and a shield. For exactly the same reasons as yours, my vote goes to Senna in spite of rash moments, kwowing Hamilton had some too. At the highest world level is it possible to remain an angel anytime?

Bearing in mind this poll is a game only, just for fun, and a very good occasion to express different opinions remaining good blokes.

Spot on Gerard. Sometimes we wear our hearts on our sleeves, this is one of those moments for me.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Spot on Gerard. Sometimes we wear our hearts on our sleeves, this is one of those moments for me.

I understand and entirely support this. However, describing some of Senna’s on track actions as “rash moments” is an awesome piece of spin. He deliberately rammed Prost and had numerous other moments well past the line that other drivers - Hamilton included - occasionally step over.

It’s absolutely fine to rate him the greatest despite (or even because of) this, because it is all part of the incredible drive and passion that made him such a hero. Let’s celebrate that emotion, while accepting that it had a dark side which can’t be conflated with misjudging an aggressive overtaking attempt.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

I understand and entirely support this. However, describing some of Senna’s on track actions as “rash moments” is an awesome piece of spin. He deliberately rammed Prost and had numerous other moments well past the line that other drivers - Hamilton included - occasionally step over.

It’s absolutely fine to rate him the greatest despite (or even because of) this, because it is all part of the incredible drive and passion that made him such a hero. Let’s celebrate that emotion, while accepting that it had a dark side which can’t be conflated with misjudging an aggressive overtaking attempt.

That's fine by me. 'rash' was Gerard's description... I've never overlooked what happened in 1990 although I do believe that some of the other 'moments' he had are pretty tame by modern standards. Maybe he did set the trend 'manners' wise, that isn't something I entirely overlook. His utter brilliance as a racer and the enjoyment that he gave to me watching him (as no other has ever done) is the reason for my unequivocal vote.

[Anyopenroad]

It's interesting how often these choices come down to magic vs the machine.

Messi - magic. Ronaldo - machine.

Ovett - magic. Coe - machine.

Brazil 1982 - magic. Spain 2010 - machine.

I'd always want to BE the magic, but I always tend to PREFER the machine.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

It's interesting how often these choices come down to magic vs the machine.

would you say this is another way of choosing between natural talent vs hard work?

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

would you say this is another way of choosing between natural talent vs hard work?

I don't think so. Messi works as hard as Ronado; Ronaldo is as talented as Messi. It's not possible to get to the pinnacle of any sport without massive doses of natural ability, determination, commitment (and luck tbh).

[Racing Harz]

Bwoah... Hamilton

[fieldodreams79]

It's currently tied 8-8!! Close the poll!

Having not been able to follow F1 during Senna's heyday and been full on in Lewis' of recent, I'm a sophomore when it comes to this vote. I went Ayrton b/c I wanted to.

So much comes down to pairing of man and machine and Lewis has been able to get into the best / better machinery for the majority of his career. Could the same be said for Ayrton? Tragically, one's was cut short in their prime...

I still contend that Sir Sterling was the best based on driving skill BUT, the GOAT of a series must play on all facets of the game.

[chunterer]

Senna for me. Sure SLH has annihilated records alomg the way but perhaps the ine area that marks Senna out is drive and motivation.

Did Ayrton ever, ever have off dsys when he wasn't on the pace?

[morninggents]

Between these two it has to be Senna for me - just magic, most of the time.


There is no doubting the class of Lewis Hamilton and he is head and shoulders above any other driver currently in F1. His titles and race wins support this. However, it must be noted that for the last five or six seasons he's had the dominant car and has only had his teammate to beat. But there lays the problem - he didn't always do that and Rosberg took the title in 2016. None of the other contenders (in my opinion) for the title of GOAT were beaten to a championship title by their teammate.

[chillibowl]

Senna was beaten by his team mate for a championship though.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Senna was beaten by his team mate for a championship though.

Beaten by the FIA*

[Adam43]

FACT!*

It needs that word to really give it the emphasis it deserves.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Adam43

FACT!*

It needs that word to really give it the emphasis it deserves.

No, it needs this one....

BALESTRE!*

[S griffin]

Murray Walker, god bless his soul, said last year he felt Hamilton was better than Senna and Schumi because he doesn't resort to those tactics. Whilst I'm not a big fan of Lewis, it's hard to argue the point Murray made. I've yet to see him drive into a rival to try and secure the title or park his car on the track during qualifying

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Beaten by the FIA*

If we're going down this route then I'd point out that Hamilton wasn't "beaten" by Rosberg in 2016, he was beaten by a car that broke more often than Rosberg's and more often than any Mercedes in any of the years of their hybrid-era dominance.

It's amusing to think how Senna would have reacted to watching a German driver win in a German-made car with an Austrian team boss, having had the mechanics swapped around, while suffering a series of breakdowns competely out of the norm for the car/team.

Whatever the what-ifs, Prost beat Senna to the 1989 title in the same car; Rosberg beat Hamilton to the 2016 title in the same car.

Personally I don't hold this against either of them, especially when we're comparing them to Schumacher, who in his periods of dominance never had a team-mate able or allowed to compete with him. I'd rather not 'penalise' Senna or Hamilton for the fact that they drove in teams who hired title rivals to be their teammates and allowed them to race.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

No, it needs this one....BALESTRE!

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