[Official] Azerbaijan Grand Prix 2021: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 6 of 21

[chillibowl]

surely there is latitude when it comes to the application of rules/penalties and while the Lando situation was a bit different, Seidl said something to the effect that there probably should be additional mechanisms to reprimand before issuing a penalty...which is a sentiment i do agree with.

ultimately the Stewards opted to just reduce the prescribed penalty so clearly there is latitude.

likewise, if they think the effort is worth it, a team can appeal these decisions much as Merc had done to have a penalty removed from Hamilton personally and placed on the team instead. as it was agreed that it was the team who instructed him to park in the pit lane (Russia i believe) Ham was let off the hook.

as these were Latifi's first points against his licence it was probably not worth anyone's time to fight it.

but speaking of points, Hamilton i think is getting close to a race ban and would be closer had the team not lobbied in Russia.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

surely there is latitude when it comes to the application of rules/penalties and while the Lando situation was a bit different, Seidl said something to the effect that there probably should be additional mechanisms to reprimand before issuing a penalty...which is a sentiment i do agree with.

Trouble is the fans will scream blue murder that things aren’t consistent! That situations can be different does not matter.

ultimately the Stewards opted to just reduce the prescribed penalty so clearly there is latitude.

Good.

likewise, if they think the effort is worth it, a team can appeal these decisions much as Merc had done to have a penalty removed from Hamilton personally and placed on the team instead. as it was agreed that it was the team who instructed him to park in the pit lane (Russia i believe) Ham was let off the hook.

as these were Latifi's first points against his licence it was probably not worth anyone's time to fight it.

Good point.

Although, we are not privy to, or pay attention to every driver’s meeting so we cannot comment on how the FIA communicate that it will be applied.

I agree that there should be a level of discretion that the stewards can apply. A lot of things aren’t clear cut.

but speaking of points, Hamilton i think is getting close to a race ban and would be closer had the team not lobbied in Russia.

[Akrapovic]

The causes of the two left-rear tyre failures on the Aston Martin and Red Bull was down to a circumferential break on the inner sidewall, which can be related to the running conditions of the tyre, in spite of the prescribed starting parameters having been followed.

Translated: the teams actually did what they were told to do by Pirelli, but Pirellis advice was wrong.

[wolfhound]

I thought the investigation rather vague in its results with RB claiming they ran their tyres within Pirelli's specifications at all times.


New regs are coming in that call for the tyres temperature and pressure to be monitored at all times.


Pirelli also said the tyre failures were not as a result of delamination, wear or a production fault, no mention of a design fault.


https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/pi...lures/6572228/

[Tourer]

The release is quite vague but no doubt there is more detail in the information provided to teams and the FIA by Pirelli.

Based on the release though, it seems that the tyres are extremely sensitive to pressure and dropping below a threshold is risky. Makes me wonder what happens when there is a SC period, particularly a lengthy one. Its not like the tyres can be eased up to temp at a restart - it is back to full-on racing of course.

Wonder if the combination of FIA / Pirelli / teams has got too cute with narrow parameters on the tyres and not allowed for reduced pressure / temp running conditions that can occur in any race? In the current world of over-complicated F1 cars and rules, they may have overlooked simple, practical reality.

[Akrapovic]

We know the tyres didn’t die due to wear or delamination though. The tread was fine and there was no visible separation of the layers. It was the sidewall coming away from the tread that was the issue. Traditionally that’s caused by damage, but it’s been confirmed that wasn’t the case here.

The big takeaway here is both Aston Martin and Red Bull obeyed Pirelli’s guidance. They were innocent. That only leaves one culprit.

[Adam43]

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/f1...lures/6572415/

More tyre pressure checks. After as well as before.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Adam43

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/f1...lures/6572415/

More tyre pressure checks. After as well as before.

So paraphrasing, the team has run the tyre within the parameters specified by Pirelli and the tyre has failed, so Pirelli insinuate it is the team's fault by mandating further checks on the tyres to cover up what looks like a design flaw. Two completely separate teams had tyre failures with but one communality.
Surprised they did not just blame debris.

This rubbish is just going to continue until someone is really badly hurt.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by wnut

This rubbish is just going to continue until someone is really badly hurt.

Or until the teams stop pushing the boundaries by adhering to the *tests* rather than the *rules*:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/th...p-out/6574262/

[bella]

Originally Posted by wnut

So paraphrasing, the team has run the tyre within the parameters specified by Pirelli and the tyre has failed, so Pirelli insinuate it is the team's fault by mandating further checks on the tyres to cover up what looks like a design flaw. Two completely separate teams had tyre failures with but one communality.
Surprised they did not just blame debris.

This rubbish is just going to continue until someone is really badly hurt.

the new rules essentially tell you exactly what they’ve been doing to get around it. red bull can still operate within the parameters of previous guidelines and be technically outside the rules.

any f1 tyre company now has to build a tyre that works with every single car and components from the hub inwards without actually being able to test on those cars in advance. it’s a tricky job. minute geometry and component changes can have a significant effect on the tyres and create failure situations when there wasn’t one previously.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Adam43

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/f1...lures/6572415/

More tyre pressure checks. After as well as before.

From this article:

While teams do have their own sensors and data to monitor tyre pressures, such systems are not reliable enough and the data not robust enough to be established evidence for rule breaches.

Maybe im reading this the wrong way, but teams lack the ability to accurately monitor their tire pressure in real time?

This seems an odd assertion. No doubt teams are playing with temps and pressure levels but surely they are measuring this (accurately I would hope) in order to understand if what they are doing is working or not.

Is it possible they still operate in this area more with intuition then over data?

[bella]

no, they’re right - the in car monitoring systems are really only good at detecting big changes iirc. same as in all motorsport. the most accurate point of data is the cold pressure set according to tyre/rim/air, whichever parameter they use. the more consistent the temperature and stable the air the better. you also want extremely dry air in the tyre for maximum consistency - any moisture makes it behave more erratic when the temp increases.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by bella

no, they’re right - the in car monitoring systems are really only good at detecting big changes iirc. same as in all motorsport. the most accurate point of data is the cold pressure set according to tyre/rim/air, whichever parameter they use. the more consistent the temperature and stable the air the better. you also want extremely dry air in the tyre for maximum consistency - any moisture makes it behave more erratic when the temp increases.

interesting, i guess i just take it for granted they are now capable of monitoring everything.

[bella]

they ARE capable of monitoring but with a significant enough degree of accuracy to use as evidence of shenanigans? nah. plus it’s tricky to try and set rules for - the issue is low pressures, and the pressure increases when they warm up not cool down. how do you judge it, are you looking for a minimum pressure at an average surface temperature? much easier just to stick with cold pressure monitoring.

it kind of wouldn’t surprise me if teams developed a valve that self-bled when it reached a certain pressure, but that would be spotted during the fitting process due to the amount of
pressure required to seat the tyre unless it could be activated by a magnet or something.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bella

they ARE capable of monitoring but with a significant enough degree of accuracy to use as evidence of shenanigans? nah. plus it’s tricky to try and set rules for - the issue is low pressures, and the pressure increases when they warm up not cool down.

I am curious what the actual variability of pressure is during the life of a tire during it's stint. You mentioned earlier that teams are able to measure while on the car, but there are issues that cause the data to not be fully trusted. Is the issue accuracy or is the issue that pressures can vary quite a bit over the course of a lap or tire stint? And if you you have accurate data that is variable and potentially even with short transient spikes (e.g. I imagine riding a curb may create a short pressure spike). This would create data that looks quite "noisy". Do you measure a rolling average, the spike, or some average of spike? How do you determine if the pressure is within bounds if the boundary is potentially a single value (don't exceed X), when actual "on track" conditions may occasionally exceed the desired maximum value even with reasonable "cold" values.

Originally Posted by bella

how do you judge it, are you looking for a minimum pressure at an average surface temperature? much easier just to stick with cold pressure monitoring.

And to my point above. If you want to find a static value, then cold pressure makes sense. But the tires are not having issues at that point. I wonder if what is happening here is a real lack of data to determine where the problem resides?

Originally Posted by bella

it kind of wouldn’t surprise me if teams developed a valve that self-bled when it reached a certain pressure, but that would be spotted during the fitting process due to the amount of
pressure required to seat the tyre unless it could be activated by a magnet or something.

My guess is that something could be done. But it could be bulky/complex if you want it to work very accurately. I think a simple mechanical system could be done, but I also wonder if it's accuracy (trigger point, repeatability, etc.) may not be up to the demands of F1 (i.e. we can make something simple, but the accuracy will be may be +/- 5% when teams and tire manufactures may want to set/maintain pressures with a much lower margin of error.)

Note: I speculate here quite a lot as I have NO idea how variable tire pressure is over a stint. But I can imagine it might be more complex than people think.

Richard

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

...Do you measure a rolling average, the spike, or some average of spike? How do you determine if the pressure is within bounds if the boundary is potentially a single value (don't exceed X), when actual "on track" conditions may occasionally exceed the desired maximum value even with reasonable "cold" values.

again could be way off base here, but would a reading at a specific point on the track work? perhaps the corner where that particular tire would experience the greatest load?

[gert]

Am I the only one that thinks it's a little bit weird that the tyre company is the sole party that has to do the investigiation as to why two of their products failed?

[bella]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Do you measure a rolling average, the spike, or some average of spike?

you kind of answer your own question here - all of your queries are why it's a really difficult thing to chase. and some of them show why you need to trust the sport when they're telling you that it isn't possible to do to the accuracy required

How do you determine if the pressure is within bounds if the boundary is potentially a single value (don't exceed X), when actual "on track" conditions may occasionally exceed the desired maximum value even with reasonable "cold" values.

but they're not looking at maximum values. this seems to be something that everyone is a little confused on. they're looking at minimum values. so what you're suggesting they do is say "well if a driver is doing x lap time, they must be at or around a point where the tyres are as warm as they'll be." and then find some magical way of quantifying the pressure. each driver works the tyres differently - see the way sergio perez can make his bags last three race distances when everyone is all "bono my tyres are gone" after 20 laps.

the pressures increase according to temperature in a pretty linear way. so much so that pirelli can and will produce a graph that tells you exactly what pressure they'll expect the tyres to be at any (average) (surface) temperature.

the literal answer is in measuring the cold pressures. the issue is in capturing those at a point where the teams are unable to interfere with them further to bring them down below the limit.

there's no NEED to develop fancy pants on track monitoring systems that produce accuracy to the nth degree when the answer is in the blankets before they're fired onto the car.

Originally Posted by gert

Am I the only one that thinks it's a little bit weird that the tyre company is the sole party that has to do the investigiation as to why two of their products failed?

happens all the way across the sport. tyre fails, tyre company comes and has a look, then it gets sent back to hq/the nerd cave for inspection. team know if they've been pushing the boundaries, their only job is to look surprised when they're told what they already know.

generally you'll not see a tyre company come out and publicly shame the team for shenanigans though. particularly in f1, the first the public learns about it is when there's noise in the media about the pressure limits changing or like now, when the rules surrounding how the operating ranges are policed are changed. then it's fairly instructional - the new rules tell you exactly what they were doing to uhh reinterpret the original rules.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by bella

see the way sergio perez can make his bags last three race distances when everyone is all "bono my tyres are gone" after 20 laps.

You're in spiky (and informative!) form with your posts recently bella, I'm greatly enjoying it .

[bella]

standard disclaimer applies, i don’t 100% know what i’m talking about but what i do know seems relevant here. if we were talking about aero i’d be asking the same sort of questions as the guys are here

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

again could be way off base here, but would a reading at a specific point on the track work? perhaps the corner where that particular tire would experience the greatest load?

Assuming that is what and when from a measurement perspective.

Originally Posted by bella

but they're not looking at maximum values. this seems to be something that everyone is a little confused on. they're looking at minimum values. so what you're suggesting they do is say "well if a driver is doing x lap time, they must be at or around a point where the tyres are as warm as they'll be." and then find some magical way of quantifying the pressure. each driver works the tyres differently - see the way sergio perez can make his bags last three race distances when everyone is all "bono my tyres are gone" after 20 laps.

A good point you make is that the right thing (or things) needs to be measured. So it might be low pressure vs. high. This broadly assumes that Pirelli understand what factors (and associated allowable range of values) drive tire longevity and failure. I am sure they do.

I do expect they are able to model the performance (as you say, lap time of X equals temp of Y). However at the end of the day, that is a model. If they are having failures, something is wrong somewhere. Bad luck (i.e. cut down tires), teams running outside of set parameters, recommended parameters are wrong, design issues, construction defect, etc. IF pressure is THE driving factor, then I would think actual measurements are more important than models. Especially if reality is not matching your model. Models can be wrong. Again, lots of supposition by me as I know little about the tires (trust you folks in the industry), but my day job is data and analysis (including predictive), so I think I can make educated guess on that side.

Originally Posted by bella

there's no NEED to develop fancy pants on track monitoring systems that produce accuracy to the nth degree when the answer is in the blankets before they're fired onto the car.

I can believe that. Especially once you really understand how something works. Back to the model topic. If your model is good and you can accurately predict on something such as track, weather, tire compound, tire location, number of laps run on the tire and lap time (what I think might be some key factors and easy/cheap to measure) then you may be able to accurately predict lots of things (pressure, wear, risk of failure, etc.).

But... if your model is wrong. Or something else is going on (i.e. design/construction defect) then you will be surprised (i.e. unanticipated failures)

Richard

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by bella

it kind of wouldn’t surprise me if teams developed a valve that self-bled when it reached a certain pressure, but that would be spotted during the fitting process due to the amount of
pressure required to seat the tyre unless it could be activated by a magnet or something.

Such valves used to exist (might even still do) and were used pretty widely in the 90s - there was one brand in particular (German I think) that was widely used across many motorsport disciplines around the world. They were banned in the categories I know about due to safety concerns. Honestly can't recall if used in F1 but they certainly were in use in GT racing, at least some Touring Car series.

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I am curious what the actual variability of pressure is during the life of a tire during it's stint.

It can be significant in all forms of motorsport. When cars/bikes/karts are doing short stints in practice, tyre pressure is checked every time the vehicle comes off track (often surface temp as well) as one of the key variables that teams work with as a measurable item that can be used to make decisions on setup. Pressure and temp variations can be quite different from corner to corner of a car and of course temperature can vary across the face of the tyre (normally take temp readings inner, centre, outer of the face).

That information is used to set the car up and also plan for tyre starting pressures and temperatures at the start of a race (where there isn't an opportunity to take measurements and adjust every few laps that there is during practice and qualifying).

With tyres forming so much of the suspension movement of a current single seater, can understand why teams would be working hard in this area and why there is a need for regulated minimum pressures.

The round black things and their management is a big part of the game - after all, all the trick gear on the car, costing millions and millions and millions is all connected to the track by the round black things - as Colin Chapman pointed out years ago - THE most important performance item on the car.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bella

standard disclaimer applies, i don’t 100% know what i’m talking about but what i do know seems relevant here. if we were talking about aero i’d be asking the same sort of questions as the guys are here

I forgot to say above... thanks for the insight!

Richard

[bella]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

This broadly assumes that Pirelli understand what factors (and associated allowable range of values) drive tire longevity and failure. I am sure they do.

fortunately it's all a pretty broad science. the same things affect tyre wear across all types of racing and all brands of tyre, what's different is the balance of factors. eg obviously you want far greater longevity from a prototype or gt tyre than a f1 or f3 tyre, and f1 tyres are subject to a far greater range of forces than one or two make series.

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

IF pressure is THE driving factor, then I would think actual measurements are more important than models. Especially if reality is not matching your model. Models can be wrong. Again, lots of supposition by me as I know little about the tires (trust you folks in the industry), but my day job is data and analysis (including predictive), so I think I can make educated guess on that side.

i think what i'd say is that pressure is one of the major driving factors that the teams can influence. course you have stuff like track and air temp that have a huge impact on the tyres, but there's not a lot they can do about that. they have to adapt the pressures according to those factors. i'm not sure how much variation there is in-event in f1 for blanket temps for sets being heated to "going onto the car" level rather than "having some heat in just in case we need to bring that set forward at short notice". the bit i don't particularly understand yet is whether track temp will affect your cold pressures or whether you solely go by air temp because your cold pressures (and incremental increases) are already influenced by the type of surface and whether it gets hotter or not.

reality evidently has been matching pirelli's model. what the teams were doing around the edges in areas of influence that weren't previously defined in words of one syllable was the bit that was warping it. i'm not sure how much f1 tyres benefit from being scrubbed or having a heat cycle on them before going into battle.

imo tyres are like anything - once you understand the influences going in, the science of what happens, and the consequences then you can start to build fairly predictable models. then you add in the human factor and everything changes completely

this has actually been a really interesting discussion, if only because it's highlighted areas where i want to know more, and where i need to ask some big brain friends for some answers

Originally Posted by Tourer

Such valves used to exist (might even still do) and were used pretty widely in the 90s - there was one brand in particular (German I think) that was widely used across many motorsport disciplines around the world. They were banned in the categories I know about due to safety concerns. Honestly can't recall if used in F1 but they certainly were in use in GT racing, at least some Touring Car series.

thank you for that! it seemed like such a simple concept there had to have been a history at some point!

and also thank you for managing to say what i've been trying to in far fewer words

[wolfhound]

Pirelli have been supplying F1 with tyres for over 10 years and the regulations have been fairly stable since the hybrid formula came in except for Bernie's changes for speed a few years back. In that time there have been a number of times when there has been multiple tyre failures.

Generally the cars get faster by a certain percentage each year until the FIA slows them with small changes every few years. I know Pirelli have only a limited amount of tyre testing but they should be able to gather a pile of data every other weekend.

Do Pirelli use simulation tools in the same way that F1 teams arrive at a track with a very good idea what their set up is going to be. One has only to witness how little running they do in practice sessions and yet they come up with good results on a regular basis. I just don't understand at this stage why Pirelli are still having problems and the cars were slowed down this year at Pirelli's request.