How to fix F1?

[Taxi645]

Drivetrain:
3.0L V10 with KERS
Fuel: Synthetic
Fuel capacity: 120kg
Rev. Limit: 16.000rpm
Power output (incl. KERS): 900bhp

Chassis:
Min. weight: 685kg (- 90kg; much lighter drivetrain incl. without extra fuel flow meter, shorter, narrower car, much lighter wheels and tires).
Max. width: 1.8m (- 0.2m)
Max. wheelbase: 3.4m

Wheels and tires:
Wheel diameter: 16-inch (2022 –2-inch, 2016 +3-inch)
Tire diameter: 670mm (2022 -50mm, 2021 +10mm)
Front: 245/16
Rear: 325/16




Done!

[Casper]

Why specify a power output, let them get as much out of it as they can.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Casper

Why specify a power output, let them get as much out of it as they can.

If they want it road relevant they could best use a cheap, light and emotive combustion engine on synthetic fuel and let the engineering effort go into a state of the art battery and electric motors.

[S griffin]

F1 has never needed to be road relevant, it’s fine in it’s own right. Keep the traditional engines that make a noise and use greener fuel. No need to try and bring it closer to road cars

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

F1 has never needed to be road relevant, it’s fine in it’s own right. Keep the traditional engines that make a noise and use greener fuel. No need to try and bring it closer to road cars

The manufacturers, who now dominate F1, want to be seen to be greener, so if they wish to continue to use F1 as a marketing tool, F1 has to be greener and more road relevant.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

If they want it road relevant they could best use a cheap, light and emotive combustion engine on synthetic fuel and let the engineering effort go into a state of the art battery and electric motors.

Yes, a view I have expressed here before. There is absolutely no reason to build bespoke engines these days unlike in past times when building special motors was essential.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Casper

Personally I think the current cries from fandom to reduce weight is just a populist thing because someone thought it was a good idea.

Those "cries" have been around for a long time, many of them on here (myself included) and many of them from people who have been in the racing industry for years (not just fandom).

F1 cars now are right up there with the weight of Group C cars back in the day, & have lost that darty, nervous reaction capability of F1 cars for so many years. Yes, times change but when cars get to a point of being visibly "clumsy" or unreactive (not sure that's a word) compared with their forebears, then it feels like times have changed a bit too much.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Those "cries" have been around for a long time, many of them on here (myself included) and many of them from people who have been in the racing industry for years (not just fandom).

F1 cars now are right up there with the weight of Group C cars back in the day, & have lost that darty, nervous reaction capability of F1 cars for so many years. Yes, times change but when cars get to a point of being visibly "clumsy" or unreactive (not sure that's a word) compared with their forebears, then it feels like times have changed a bit too much.

Cant agree enough here Tourer, clumsy is the word.

There was an interesting Vlog from Harry's garage on JCB's analysis of how electric power is just too heavy and expensive for heavy machinery that has to work for many hours a day and hydrogen powered IC engines are what they anticipate in future.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19Q7nAYjAJY

Tip: watch on 2x speed, but very interesting.

Take note F1. - Ditch the Batteries.


P.S. Clip from engineering explained on Toyota's hydrogen racer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IPR50-soNA

[bathurst77]

I dont know if F1 needs to be road relevant
given that Renault and Merc are the only mainstream manufacturers
Mclaren Ferrari AM ... well if you in that market, its probably a weekend toy not your daily so youre probably not too concerned about its green stamp
And the others.. well haas, redbull williams etc dont make road cars

[P38 in workshop]

For purely competition purposes there may be no need for road relevance.In the Uk at least there is a body of people who dislike all forms of motor vehicle, purportedly because of environmental concerns.It is slightly less difficult to justify the whole endeavour if there are useful spin offs for society by continuing with the activity.It might easily be argued that a weekend of football creates more greenhouse gases,what with thousands of cars streaming scarves along motorways and even amateurs car sharing to play at their local parks.Nobody ever advances that point and so we get Greta Thunberg and her shrill imitators agitating against all forms of internal combustion engines.Not to mention the real hard core mob who glued themselves to the road surface this week to stop vehicles moving and one of the more demented declared that he didn't care if people in ambulances died as a result.These people exist and need to be countered or their voices will sooner or later end motorsport.Developing things that will benefit society is a reasonably compelling justification.


As much as I would like to see 150Kg come off the weight of the cars and maybe 400mm out of the wheelbase,I understand how we arrived at this point.Its what batteries weigh and basic aerodynamics tells us that increasing the area over which downforce acts will increase the load on the tyres and hence the grip.Its a bit unfortunate that we are about to see a new formula when the present version has just matured to the point where we don't expect a Mercedes 1-2 at every race.That led to a level of predictability redolent of the Schumacher years at the beginning of the century.


I don't see the internal combustion element going away soon,but I know there will be a higher proportion of biofuel soon and wouldn't be surprised to see fully synthetic come into play.Maybe hydrogen too and Le Mans may be leading the way in this respect.The FIA and the CRH are well aware of the challenges and may be expected to do their best.The existing teams may need to look beyond their immediate interests if they are to keep the series viable.Less dependency on manufacturers may be a part of it.None of them has a divine right to exist and although the barriers to entry are very high,it doesn't mean they are guaranteed to exist forever as racing teams.A quick look at the list of extinct teams should remind them of that,some distinguished names have left the grid as well as a lot of minnows.Change is the only constant and not all change is welcomed.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Those "cries" have been around for a long time, many of them on here (myself included) and many of them from people who have been in the racing industry for years (not just fandom).

F1 cars now are right up there with the weight of Group C cars back in the day, & have lost that darty, nervous reaction capability of F1 cars for so many years. Yes, times change but when cars get to a point of being visibly "clumsy" or unreactive (not sure that's a word) compared with their forebears, then it feels like times have changed a bit too much.

I suspect the real reason the cars have lost the darty nervous reaction is not the weight of the cars but the fact that they are so loaded with aero they can't move quickly. The cars are designed to be stable because allowing them to do quick changes means the aero does not work properly. I still think it is a trendy thing to criticise the weight but that is just me. The length of the cars is another reason that causes aero stability and the teams fought tooth and nail to prevent the cars being made substantially shorter because it would mean the aero being less effective.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Casper

I suspect the real reason the cars have lost the darty nervous reaction is not the weight of the cars but the fact that they are so loaded with aero they can't move quickly. The cars are designed to be stable because allowing them to do quick changes means the aero does not work properly. I still think it is a trendy thing to criticise the weight but that is just me. The length of the cars is another reason that causes aero stability and the teams fought tooth and nail to prevent the cars being made substantially shorter because it would mean the aero being less effective.

Wouldn't the long wheelbase also be a factor, as well as the weight?

[S griffin]

It's a good question about the wheelbase, definitely that is something I don't think many have thought about before, so it does make you wonder a bit

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

Greta Thunberg and her shrill imitators agitating against all forms of internal combustion engines.

What's wrong with that? Surely internal combustion engines are awful, awful, vile things that have no place in society? No place whatsoever.

Thunberg is not interested in "blah, blah, blah", instead there needs to swift, direct and forceful action to ban the burning of fossil fuels wherever they are used, surely? [The problem being that burning fossil fuels releases the greenhouse gas carbon dioxide, where carbon dioxide has more than doubled in atmospheric concentration in the short time since the beginning of the industrial revolution. Visible and ultraviolet light from the sun warms up the ground, but then a higher concentration of carbon dioxide prevents infrared radiation reemitted by the ground from escaping back into space, hence causing a warming of the atmosphere.]

At least that is the policy direction of the European Union -- though I am not sure why personal motor vehicles are a target above other things, be it trucking, shipping, garden equipment, bon fires, household wood fires, gas heaters, transport, coal power, gas power etc.

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

I don't see the internal combustion element going away soon,but I know there will be a higher proportion of biofuel soon and wouldn't be surprised to see fully synthetic come into play.

For now, the process of manufacturing carbon-neutral aka synthetic fuel is incredibly inefficient. It's much, much, much less lossy to put the renewable electricity directly into an onboard battery pack, than use the renewable electricity to manufacture a synthetic fuel and then transport and burn the synthetic fuel.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

Change is the only constant and not all change is welcomed.

There is nothing to prevent F1 from negiotiating with Formula E for them to grant permission for F1 to also run a contemporary battery electric formula. If F1 would be slower than Formula Vee, given the need to run 305km Grands Prix, then so be it!

With so little power, Casper would have their wish of little to no aero, as the F1 cars won't be powerful enough to push huge wings along.