Brabham BT21

[mikestow]

Sorry Folks,cant seem to edit this,getting old and forgetful!BT21-46 Purchased April'69,not '68 ,and Tose's accident '68 not '67.Otherwise all seems to be correct above!!!!!Sorry !In '68 I had a Cooper T83,and '67 a T76 which I wont talk about!!

[Chris Townsend]

Mike

Hi and welcome to the forum! I'm sure that you'll find a lot of people here want to pick your brains, see those photographs and listen to the stories of the days when racing was an adventure, and fun.

Let me go first. When you talked about Hawthorne buying Coaker's BT21B, were you in fact right first time that it was BT21B-20, rather than 18?
My reason for thinking this is that the person who observed Tose using BT21-46 in June 1968, saw Barrie Maskell driving BT21B-18 at the same race. Later in the season Barrie and Graham Coaker appeared together at several races, so unless Barrie had borrowed Graham's car on a one-off drive in June, then bought another car, they can't both be 18...
Also, Maskell's car is for sale by Brian Robinson at a time when Hawthorne is already appearing in Coaker's old car, and the subsequent history of that car after Hawthorne - to David Martell, Ed Reeves and Bob King, wouldn't fit with what we know of the ex Maskell car, which ended up as a F.Ford quite quickly.

Would you be able to clear up some issues on your BT28s
You bought 28-20 in August 69. Did you sell that to Dick Barker at the start of 1970?
Then in late 70 early 71 did you buy the ex Beuttler BT28-2 and convert it to Atlantic spec? Did you then sell that to Dick at the start of 1971?

Cheers
Chris

[mikestow]

Hello Chris.OK then,Barrie Maskell and Graham Coaker's BT21B were not the same car,Barrie came from "Up North"!!.Graham got his brand new in the "White" through Alan Fenn.I am pretty certain he had no18.Do you know who did have no 20??.I bought BT28-20 and sold BT21 -46 to MRE ,Bourne End.The BT28 came in the "white",and MRE Built it up and set it up.I then used it at a Notts Sports Car Meeting at Silverstone to try it out and won the class.It came on Goodyear tyres,which were good when new but the wear was much greater than Firestone YB15,11 etc.I ran that for a few months ,but Entries were getting more difficult as they were too many Brabhams,plus MRD Had a hold on TDC DEvelopements,who made exhausts.A 2-3bhp increase was available with a 4 into 1 coming out of the side with a straight pipe,instead of the normal 2 into 1 underneath the driveshaft(A la Holbay)MRD doubled the price,and Mrs Terry(The TDC Boss) could not help,so this was very expensive!!.A designer (I think Mike?? Baldwin?? was his name,who went on to design and build the GRD)at Lotus told me they had a fully rebuilt 59(Ikusawa),with a new Holbay at a cheap price,and Paul Watson suggested this would be a good idea for entries,as there were very few 59s.Also Mike Ticehurst wanted to do a FormulaB or F2 version based on the F3 car,as the Lotus 69 was late and even Winkelmans only had 1 car available for Graham Hill,so that is why that happened later,in april '70.The Car went to the Paris Racing Car show at the end of '69,arranged by Robs Lamplough-He got me into Racing,and I think I got him hooked on Aviation.In '71 I had gone back into Flying and was at Manby on Jet Refresher,so could not really do a whole season,but Graham Coaker(by that time running the production line at March)suggested Atlantic was much cheaper than F2,so I fixed with MRE to get a BT35-The Lotus with a new Felday rebuilt FVA went to Ken Smith in Oz.MRD could not produce a new chassis,so Jim Gleave had a very cheap knackered BT28-2 at MRE getting a complete overhaul.It was going to go to Steve Matchet who had bought 2 BT29s previously,and only had one delivered to go the US for Formula B.He was going to get this BT28 modified to 29 spec,but changed his mind,and kept the other 29 which I think he raced in the States.I therefore took it as a cheaper option,but there were no BDAs available either,so we had to make do with a Mk13 Cosworth Twink.I could not fly and race at the same time,so I did not finish the season,but still came 6th or 7th in the series,when Dick Barker contacted me again to see if he could buy the 28/35.He had liked the 28 in late'69 as it was in good nick,so he took one look at the 28/35 and bought it,as well around Oct '71.I did do various deals in '72 with Mike Knight who was a good friend of mine,but no more Racing,as poor Graham was now dead(Another story wrapped around Moseley),and we bought Peter Hull's BT38,put in a BRM Twink and sold it for Formula B and JohnWatson's BT40,but Mike had Magny Cours to run and Tico Martini was building cars,so he stopped Atlantic as well,but then went back to driving with his brother Richard-Lola T70s etc.You can PM me for further info I cant put here and if you want Photos I am haapy to oblige!!Kind Regards Mike

[mikestow]

Further to your query re Barrie Maskell's 21Band Graham Coaker's being recorded as the same chassis number,I remember Barrie Maskell having his in mid'68 ,but selling it to Rodney Bloor of Sports Motors Manchester,and buying Tim Schenken's Chevron B9,maybe after the Racing Car Show end of '68.This he campained throughout '69,and Schenken ran the quasi works Brabham 21X ,the 28 Prototype,and BT28 for Sports Motors in '69.Graham had his throughout '68 and '69,until Bert Hawthorne bought it.

[grant levis]

Roly and I have both seen the Hawthorn BT21 in Christchrch NZ. If I can see it again will get AM number. I will not divulge owners name here as doesn't want to get hassled. It is by the way quite original but needing full rebuild.
On BT23 forum will add some info on 23/7 history
keep up the excellent work
Grant Levis

[grant levis]

Sorry, meant BT23C/7

[allenbrown]

Welcome Grant. I'd be most interested in anything you can turn up on the Hawthorn BT21.

[edholly]

On the previous page the progress with tracing AM288’s history is detailed. There is now one more bit that can be added to this. Amongst the documentation that was lost for some time is a copy of a letter from Pierre Phillips dated 6th March 1990 to Edward (Ted) Walker saying he thought that this car was chassis BT21C-12. That could definitely not be the case, as -12 was already in the hands of fellow Australian Gary Simpkin living in the USA at the time. However this would explain why Bill Schlossnagel would have crossed out the -14 and over written -12. (see page 8) At some point of time Russell Baldwin who did the research back then must have had some indication AM288 was chassis -14 but when Pierre told him he believed it was -12 he started down a different track. Russell told me he used to blow up photos of the dashboard to discern the numbers on the chassis plate - maybe this is where the -14 number came from, from an old photograph of the car he thought he now had, but he dismissed it when Pierre told him he thought it was -12.

Ted Walker told Russell that -12 was “taken” which in conversations I had with Russell before he passed away about 12 months ago, I don’t think he quite believed. But in fact Ted was right -12 is here in Australia and was in Gary’s ownership with all chassis plates attached at the time that letter was written.

I have gone through all the mentions of BT21Cs in America I can find and have put the results on a spreadsheet. I have printed it then scanned it to make a .jpg to be able to insert it. What it seems to say that in mainstream US/Canada racing there may only have been a core of a half dozen or so BT21Cs. There may have been others there of course, not in the major FB series and thereby not accessible at this time on the web, however it makes interesting reading and you can see where some stop racing and others start, maybe indicating who bought from whom.

If AM288 turns out to be BT21C-14 then it started with McGlothlin, a name I have had no luck in contacting yet. When McGlothlin ceases to appear in the results Delamore and Hansen and a bit later Jenson and Spears commence.

A great help would be to add the chassis numbers to this spreadsheet, then you could really see where the various owner's/ driver's cars went.

Another snippet from Baldwin’s research indicates that AM288 may have been traded for a Lola Formula Ford with Pierre Phillips (which Pierre cannot remember but will do some research for me) from someone from around New Jersey, so that might indicate that it stayed on the eastern side of the States when McGlothlin finished with it. Does anyone know if any of the 4 above are east coast racers?

The sheet is attached – if anyone has other names and dates etc I can update this one and repost at a later time.

Again any help anyone might be able to give would be much appreciated.

Ed

[Bryan Miller]

Ed.

Charlie Adams car is BT21C-12 , now in the hands of the Dizane family in Melb. and the car that Gary Simkin bought back from the USA centuries ago.

[Chris Townsend]

Ed

You have to properly account for cars in SCCA; there were a large number of new cars sold by British manufacturers, from the late 60s, for the best part of a decade, that rarely, if ever, appeared in a pro race. These have to be traced in other ways, period ads are often the only place you pick them up, unless they ran in the top three of SCCA races, in which case Competition Press reports them, but often without model number. Don't under-estimate SCCA as a repository for old European cars and specials; a lot of drivers bought new cars to use only in these "club" races

There's a car for Horst Kwech in 1968 for example, which appears on an Opert stock list late that year. "68 built only one in US with FT200, excellent Vegantune", so this is an FB car, almost certainly a 21C, not a B21B and surely not a BT23.

Also BT21C mounted in 1968 are Malcolm Starr, E.coast driver, who probably sells the car as he has a new Lotus 59 the following year; Jerry Nelson, mid west driver. Nelson has a 21C in November at the run-offs, but he's running an unidentified Brabham, which could be a 21C, as early 1 June, at Grattan; Peter Goetz [Pennsylvania] has 21C-1 for sale, with chassis number, in Competition Press in November 1968, only three races; Opert has for sale in Competition Press, same month, a new BT21C with FT200, due in 25 October, so this must be one of the last ones built, going unraced in 1968 unless it appears at the SCCA run-offs [it can't be the Kwech car as that's already on an earlier stock list]; in the same ad are two BT21Cs with Mk5 Hewlands due in 15 November.
This suggests that three B21Cs don't race in 1968 which, with 19 being Hawthorne's car for the Tasman and 17 being in UK, suggests 15, 16 and 18.

Wayne Spears' car was actually owned [or at least entered] by Peter Roberts

Chris

[allenbrown]

Chris is quite right. Also in the 1968 SCCA Divisional points tables you'll find cars simply described as Brabhams - which might mean a BT21A or a BT21C or a BT18 or even a BT14. It appears that BT21As were often described simply as BT21s and that may have happened to BT21Cs as well. On the other hand, F3 BT21s may have been converted to twin-cam spec and sold to the US.

For example, in NorPac and SoPac Alves, France, Milledge and Reynolds are in under-described Brabhams.

[Chris Townsend]

I would suggest that most of the t/c engined cars in the US/Canada are actually 21As and 21Cs. Where F3 cars were sold into North America they were mostly run as FCs because the driver could use them without changing the engine. Certainly two 21Bs went new to US for Knoll and Opert [his own car] with SCA and MAE engines respectively.

Obviously I can't prove this yet, and there were examples of conversion, but more and more of the FC BT21s seem to be second hand UK F3s whereas the FBs are new. BT18s a different matter...

[LoLola]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

I would suggest that most of the t/c engined cars in the US/Canada are actually 21As and 21Cs. Where F3 cars were sold into North America they were mostly run as FCs because the driver could use them without changing the engine. Certainly two 21Bs went new to US for Knoll and Opert [his own car] with SCA and MAE engines respectively.

Obviously I can't prove this yet, and there were examples of conversion, but more and more of the FC BT21s seem to be second hand UK F3s whereas the FBs are new. BT18s a different matter...

Early on when I was trying to determine the history of my car BT21C-16 I did not pay attention to the C either and thought it was just something else. When I finally found the original owner (Gari Andreini) he gave me the scoop on it. He did buy it new as a BT21C here in the US. We have spoken several times and it is indeed what you mentioned about a car that just came over to the US and did local SCCA club races. Here is what he told me.

Nick


"yes i am, or was, the orginal owner and would be delighted to talk to you about its history. you might find it quite interesting. where do you race it and how did you find that i was the orginal owner? i ordered it directly from the brabham factory in England in about 1968 after i graduated from the jim russel driving school that was held in 67 or 68 at the rosamond raceway in southern calif. (school was with formula fords as i recall) raced from 1969 through 1972 when we moved to alaska in 73 and sold the car to art siri(an old fellow high school buddy from santa rosa high school - we graduated in 1955)

i won a number of races and two yearly scca championships in 1971 and 1972 i believe. this was a result of my very excellent and experienced mechanic: bob consani (deceased last month) who was a quite famous dirt track champion himself in the 50's and 60's in sonoma county. he was also involved with the usac vukovich family for many years. he was quite a skilled mechanic so my wins were more of a result of the car being able to finish than my driving skills.

bob consani added the roll cage and on board fire extinguisher for my protection which of course added weight to the car and did slow it somewhat. i have given my old trophys away but still have the dash plaques, some time sheets, and some excellent picutures of the car and myself that i would be pleased to share with you"

[LoLola]

Does anyone know who is reproducing or selling wheels for BT21's?

I need a couple 12" rears.

Nick

[mike faloon]

Can any one confirm Bt21(B?) 37, AM 252, 1968, Jean Bernard Mermod, ran for first time at Hockenheim 11/8/1968; seem to have spent most of its time on the hills in Europe. Any help appreciatd.

[Haggis 2]

Does anyone know of this car. It is Don O'Sullivan at Caversham Western Australia in 1968, and I believe it is a BT21 with a 2.5 Coventry Climax engine. The car was not retained for long by Don as he joined the Can AM style sports car series in Oz then the F5000 circus shortly after. It is believed the car returned to GB at the end on '68 or thereabouts. Any info would be highly prized.


<br><br>


____________________________
Brendon Hagarty

[cavvy]

Ah Haggis, further research suggests the O'Sullivan car was BT21-30, with Frank Williams heritage before going to WA.
Returned to the UK when O'Sullivan moved into F5000 in 1969.

[allenbrown]

Can you tell us more of your further research on this subject?

[cavvy]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

Can you tell us more of your further research on this subject?

Allen, refer to the Brabham owners site & Ted Walkers question & discussion
http://www.nvo.com/brabhams/discussi...sion&uid=10295

& Terry Walkers site on West Aus motorsport
http://www.terrywalkersplace.com/

Also from www.speedwest
Re: Who, what, when.... [Re: Terry_Walker]
Haggis2

Member Administrator

Registered: 19/04/08
Posts: 549
Loc: Perth WA Now I'm on to something. Call me obsessed! From a discussion on Brabham Owners Forum....:
http://www.speedwest.net/forums/foru...gonew/1#UNREAD

Fair to say Allen, we all had fun with this.

[allenbrown]

OK cavvy, I finally managed to get access to the speedwest.net site but I still don't see anything that we didn't know six years ago. Ted is quoted as trying to find information about BT21-30 but the email being quoted is from 2003.

What Ted actually says is that he's found the car in the UK and that "It was supposed to have been sold via Frank Williams to O Sullivan". We don't know that BT21-30 actually did go to Australia; we don't know the identity of the car O'Sullivan raced in 1968; we don't know that O'Sullivan's car came back to the UK after 1968. We didn't know these things in 2003 and we still don't know them now.

Also, BT21-30 was a McKechnie car, not a Frank Williams car. If Williams had been involved - and I see no evidence that he was beyond Ted's original request for help - it would been purely as a second-hand racing car dealer.

The problem here is that Ted's emails saying "it is possible that" and "it was supposed to" have then turned into other posters' "it appears that" and "my theory is". This does not constitute further research. It constitutes further speculation.

[cavvy]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

OK cavvy, I finally managed to get access to the speedwest.net site but I still don't see anything that we didn't know six years ago. Ted is quoted as trying to find information about BT21-30 but the email being quoted is from 2003.

What Ted actually says is that he's found the car in the UK and that "It was supposed to have been sold via Frank Williams to O Sullivan". We don't know that BT21-30 actually did go to Australia; we don't know the identity of the car O'Sullivan raced in 1968; we don't know that O'Sullivan's car came back to the UK after 1968. We didn't know these things in 2003 and we still don't know them now.

Also, BT21-30 was a McKechnie car, not a Frank Williams car. If Williams had been involved - and I see no evidence that he was beyond Ted's original request for help - it would been purely as a second-hand racing car dealer.

The problem here is that Ted's emails saying "it is possible that" and "it was supposed to" have then turned into other posters' "it appears that" and "my theory is". This does not constitute further research. It constitutes further speculation.

OK Allen, however there was a suggestion O'Sullivan did not race a Brabham in Australia, not correct.
Perhaps you can use the same sources used researching the O'Sullivan
F5000 cars (Gardos/McLaren M18/M22) to confirm the Brabhams heritage.
Is the car 'speculated' around these days?

[allenbrown]

Good idea. I will dig out those email addresses after Xmas.

[skygod]

I recently had the pleasure of meeting a very nice Swedish guy (Hans Sjostedt) who happened to mention that in the 1960 / 1970s he had been involved in F2 / F3 motor racing.

I would like to try and gather information on the cars he drove and if they are still around today.

According to www.teamdan.com, in the Karlskoga, Swedish Championship, Round 3 (1970) he is attributed to driving a Brabham BT 21.

Any information would be most welcome.

Thanks

[dirksx1]

Am trying to get a history on a BT 21 Frame # AM 240 which I now own. I originally purchased the the BT 21 some 20 year ago from the US, California. The car was last used for cart racing and had a aluminium block V8. Frame has since been restored and I have purchased a a lotus twin cam for it but want to trie to find out original configuration prior to completing restoration.

Can anyone provide some direction or shed some light on the history of the car.

Thanks

[Chris Townsend]

Originally Posted by dirksx1

Am trying to get a history on a BT 21 Frame # AM 240 which I now own. I originally purchased the the BT 21 some 20 year ago from the US, California. The car was last used for cart racing and had a aluminium block V8. Frame has since been restored and I have purchased a a lotus twin cam for it but want to trie to find out original configuration prior to completing restoration.

Can anyone provide some direction or shed some light on the history of the car.

Thanks

Dirk,
with that AM number it is likely [stress likely, it could just be late 67] to be a 1968 construction, so a BT21B or 21C.

Chris