FIA Racer 1959 Ford Fairlane/Galaxie

[Jeremy Hall]

Sex and travel Terry

[terence]

Thanks again for your invaluable advice Jeremy,one of the quality's I have always admired about you is the never ending helpfulness

[Jeremy Hall]

Added to your bottomless quality of flogging dead horses Terry we make a right pair.

[terence]

Flogging Dead Hrg's,not really ,just being kind.

[martin.braun]

Very very good news, Jeremy. Thank you so much for posting.

I renewed my FIA-HTP-application at the German DMSB in Frankfurt just last week.
They said, responsible Kai Zimmermann is in holiday until 1. Sep.
And they will inform Dieter Fuerst just in case of emergency...

So I would be very happy if you take the RAC book with you to Paris to show it Dieter Fuerst. So he can inform Kai Zimmermann in Frankfurt that this rally was indeed a round of the European Rally Championship.

Thank you in advance.

Martin Braun

[Jeremy Hall]

Martin I met yesterday with one of the DMSB representatives and discussed the 1958 Midnight Rally. I now undersatnd that there is no question that the rally was International.
However I now understand that your car is a 1959 facelift model, not the 1958 model that took part in the rally.
On this basis I understand that the DMSB are correct in their approach to your car.
Sorry I cannot help

[GBRM]

And there we all were thinking that this story was going to have a happy ending!!

[Peter Mallett]

So, did a 1959 facelift model take part in the Marathon de la route?

[martin.braun]

Jeremy, thank you so much for your troubles in Paris.

Well, thats very bad news.
I hoped the problem is the international status of the sweden rally. But German DMSB is now setting the focus on the facelift 58-59. I think this is - excuse me - dirty, because the German DMSB did not say a word concerning a facelift-problem, but just the international status-problem of that rally.
Now the international status is prooved (thanks to Jeremy Hall) and now the DMSB set his focus suddenly on the facelift, which was never mentioned as a problem before.

Does this mean, dear Jeremy, there is no chance for a contradiction in Paris/FIA after a declining by the german DMSB?

Very sad, but thankful for all the help from all of you here
Martin

[Al Weyman]

This is what i find most irritating about this FIA historic thing, so what if it never raced at the time what has that to do with the price of eggs, if it is perodically correct and a genuine model let the guy run it for crying out loud.

[zefarelly]

Terry you mean ?

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

So, did a 1959 facelift model take part in the Marathon de la route?

[Hagis]

Hello Martin,
I have obviously "lost" this thread for some time, and feel really bad with its current status.
Of course Jeremy Hall was quite right in his mail of 15 Aug about the Swedish rally "By definition if it was ...... it must be International". That was about the same I ment in my mail og 8 March, but I see not so clear.,
Then obviously your DMSB "Friends" found something else to stop you, that your facelifted ´58 (=1959) is no good. Embarassing! Now, this is before the "real" FIA homologations were issued, but IF the 1958 should have had papers then, the 1959 model, or the different details, certainly would have been put in as an addition to the 1958 papers.
Embarassing, again as in some cases very big differences are put in as variants. I think for instance that the Vauxhall Ventura came out in a quite new version that was put in as an addition under the same FIA # as "New bodywork". There sure are more examples like that.
So if somebody as Jeremy Hall or somebody else with status would convince them about that this is OK they would maybe find another reason to stop you?
My own opinion is that every car listed, and thus then allowed to race in international FIA-events, should be allowed to race historic now. Especially as FIA´s own sources with facts about International races or rallies, and also other things, are not complete at all. This hunting after papers or books that many times do not exist, is ridiculous.
And about your "Friends"; you are paying their salaries!
Still hope you get a happy end with this, but don´t know how.
Best wishes,
Hagis

[johnh875]

It also shows the vagaries of the differences between US manufacturers with their yearly product cycles and others - eg I would imagine there would be an MGB homologation that could cover 10 years worth of production! That prompts a thought (and excuse the stupid question) - is an annual homologation required? Otherwise why wouldn't an homologation apply to a car with some minor cosmetic changes but retaining the same specification?

[Peter Mallett]

FWIW the Capri homologation cert includes groups 1 and 2 and covers (in my version) Mk1 through to MkIII. It also has the various diff ratios, fibreglass spoiler for the Gp 1 MkII S etc. So the logic applied here would seem to work.

[Hagis]

These two last mails, (63 and 64) perfectly adds up to what I mentioned about homologations in my last mail.
But I also thought about another thing. I understand that FIA should not pay any attention to chassis # when giving a car an HTP. Would it be possible to " re-cosmetic" your ´59 to a 58? I also understand that some chrome trim also could be eliminated according to the rules and thus making this easier.´
Best regards, Hagis

[terence]

That would require an original 58 chassis number,its called ringing.Not too sure of the legallity of that.

[johnh875]

Is there a list of homologations for pre-66 cars? I can only find one that covers 66-onwards.

[martin.braun]

Thank you guys.
Hmm, a re-building of the 59 to a "58" is technically possible but this kind of behavior is not my style.

The main thing is, that German DMSB did not say a word about a "facelift-problem" in the last half of the year, but just wanted a proof of the international status of the Swedish Rally. I took "half of the world" in trouble to get this proof - and after I got it, the German DMSB turns quickly to the facelift-thing. That is definitetly not gentleman-like. This is dirty.

Johnh875: Yes, there is a list for pre-66 homologations. I will look for it.

Martin

[martin.braun]

Look at this, john
http://www.dmsb.de/downloads/1884/Ho...teller.xls.pdf

Martin

[Hagis]

Now, according to the mails following my proposal about possibility to rebuild a ´59 to a ´58, it sounds that this should be suspect. In my opinion it should be OK nb. -FIA-wise- to do this, as to convert a Cortina to a Lotus Cortina or a BMW 1800 to a 1800 ti for that sake, and keeping the old chassis no. As far as I understand, FIA wants to know what chassis no the car has, but as long as it is up to the homologation that the car should represent, it doesn´t matter what chassis no the car has. Furthermore, this No is not shown in the HTP any longer.
Then I can fully understand, and also agree, that there could be reasons not to do this, but OK FIA-wise. But maybe this would be the only way to satisfy your "Friends", Martin?? Or maybe not even then!
Best regards,
Hagis

[terence]

With due respect,I understand your point but this sort of practice has been around for so long,indeed one of the reasons for there being more LCs etc than were built originally.This is one of the very reasons for the Invention of the HTPs,to stop cloning of these cars,we do not need any more out there and I think Martin obviously will not take this route[which in this day and age is pretty refreshing]

[johnh875]

Thanks Martin, of course there are very few pre-1960 cars listed, indeed I imagine that for the 1958 rallies there would not have been an homologation requirement and you simply entered. It is a shame that we are now trying to so rigidly enforce regulations that simply did not exist back then!

[martin.braun]

Now I telefoned once more with the German DMSB.
It is a strange attitude. Even a year after my HTP-application they will not say yes, they will not say no.
DMSB says now, my application is now since beginning of september at FIA in Paris because German DMSB will not decide, whether the proofed 1958 sweden-rally participation is sufficient to get a HTP for a 1959 car. I have to wait until Paris will decide this, says the German DMSB man.

Martin

[terence]

Be glad it's not an HRG Martin,5years and still waiting despite actually having the HTPs granted once.

[Hagis]

Hallo Martin!

Wie geht´s?
Well , have a look at the latest addition in the Appendix K, on the first page p. 1.2 in red.
"Cars without an international competition history but which have a competition history in national championship events or other significant national events of equivalent status, may also be accepted."
I don´t know what this would mean to your ASN bit in my eyes this must be an opening in your situation.
Best regards,
Hagis