Problems with Schumacher

[EERO]

Could everyone please calm down a bit. There is no need to start antagonizing one another. Raoul, I cannot believe that you actually meant what you said. I think an aplogy might be in order.

There are several factors being debated here, but the reality of the situation is that none of us really knows the man.

I don't like the reality of the current world which seems much less civil and sporting, where not only winning, but winning at all costs and rubbing your opponents faces in their defeat are common place. This is not endemic only of F1, but pervades all of society.
Are there things about Michael Schumacher which rub me the wrong way? Yes. But I also ackowledge that he is tremendously gifted AND that he works harder than anyone else at honing his skills and training his body.
Outside of racing, he has supported a number of Philanthropic causes, even visiting Bosnia during the Civil War. Did any other driver this?

The point is, he IS the sun about which the sport orbits right now and is therefore prone to greater scrutiny. I agree with Liz that in his retirement, he will face some difficult questions as he reflects upon his career. He is not quite the villan some of us paint and he is not without flaws. He is human-with all the glory and shortcomings that we all manifest.

Again, I will state that I am not a fan, and that my reaction is purely visceral, but I recognise that I really don't KNOW him. I look forward to the future books to which Liz has alluded.

[Raoul Duke]

I have nothing to apologise for, I don't apreceate being told that my opinions are pointless and incorect. Everybody has their own take on things. There are no black and white answers to the question, so to accuse someone else of being incorect, when they are voicing their opinions, is way out of order.
Yes I know, TGF has done many charitable things in his life, and he's a nice person as well as a fantastic driver, i've heard it all. But it doesn't change what he does on the track. I don't aproove of his methods, and that is MY opinion. If somebody is going to personally attack me by saying my arguments are pointless and incorect, then that person better be ready to accept whatever's coming to him/her in return.
What goes around comes around!.

[Quino]

I never said your opinions are pointless and incorrect (how could I?). I only said your arguments for backing up that opinion are pointless and incorrect.

Why pointless?
Because it's useless to try and defend why you dislike someone. It's just a state of mind or whatever. Accept it as a fact and quit feeling the need to justify that fact. Its just, well...pointless.

Why incorrect?
You can read that fully in my previous posts.

ps.
I thought we were taking eachother seriously here. Well, at least I was. There's really no need for namecalling. In a discussion like this you could also speak of "sportsmanship" (r.e.s.p.e.c.t. has got a little something to do with it). Since this is the subject you choose to preach, it would be in order for you to clean up your act.

[Raoul Duke]

But my arguments ARE my opinions. That's how I get the basis for my arguments, through what I am thinking inside.
And I have EVERY justifiable reason to dislike TGF, yes I don't know him personally, or any other driver for that matter(the same goes for the majority of the racing fans!), but I KNOW what I see on the track. And I have every right to decide, for myself, whether or not I think a particular action or tactic, is wrong. That's what opinions are all about, and everybody has their OWN opinions. And I am not going to change my mind just because the vast majority of members don't agree with my opinions. Telling me that I can't dislike TGF, is basically saying that I can't have a mind of my own, or voice my own thoughts. I'm sorry if you feel that everyone has to be neutral or one sided, but I for one, will not hesitate to speak up when I have something to say, whether others agree or not.
I have done NOTHING wrong here. I have simply stood my ground and defended my opinions, which is what anybody would do in my position.
Formula 1 is a universal sport, which attracks a diversity of fans, so it's only natural, that peoples opinions on such matters are diverse. For you to say that I have no right to dislike someone because I choose to dislike them and have clearly stated my reasons, and then to accuse my arguments of being incorrect and pointless, is out of order and unjustifiable, and extremely ignorant.
You tell me to clean up my act, well I would suggest that you take your own advice, mate!.

[Raoul Duke]

I would also like to add a comment, to the people who say that character and on track tactics are unrelated, well I think they are related somewhat. Because when TGF(or anyone else) decides to ram another driver off the track, he is making that descision himself to do it. Obviously there is something in his character(consciously or subconsciously) that makes him think that those tactics are ok, whether it's in the heat of the moment, or he had planned it beforehand.

[riusnow]

To those hating MS: what is your opinion on his track record? How about compared to the 'Greats': Senna, etc?


......that's what I thought.

[Raoul Duke]

Look, FOR THE LAST TIME!!!!!!!!. I have never claimed that TGF wasn't talented!. The reasons that I dislike him have NOTHING to do with his actual skill, or track records, or any other records that you might think of!. I dislike him because of his on track tactics!.

[Jeanburrasca81]

Gotcha Duke.

[Gt_R]

Hmm...Duke mate, its amazing how you insist that people have the rights to have their own opinion, yet blast Quino with names when he believed that your arguments are pointless and incorrect. And to make matters worst, you actually called him names for the wrong reasons.
While i do take all your opinions to mind, and i do believe that you have reasons to justify your actions, and SINCE you can PRESUME that somebody is ignorant just by stating his opinions on YOUR opinion, i could also think that you are pretty rude there.
This is a discussion, and while it is perfectly natural for things to turn a little nasty at times, please try your best to keep it pleasant, k? Afterall, this is where it can keep F1 fans entertained in between races...
And perhaps THIS could make you a little happier.
"MICHAELS IS A CHEAT....and A LOSER....AND BLAH BLAH BLAH"
I would be glad to just say these words if it would ensure him to win in raaces.... and make you happy. Dunt get soo mad...it aint good for your health~

PS: MICHAEL WAS EXCELLENT IN QUALIFYINGS! CLEAN AND VERY VERY CLEAN AND VERY VERY EXCELLENT DRIVE ON THE LIMITS!!! Proving this time that the MCLARENS WERE indeed running light fuels in prac..hehhh...pretenders to give fans false hope..whahahaa

[riusnow]

Don't take this so personally Duke. I know what you're saying.
But I'm wondering if people (not necessarily you or anyone else here) hate MS for the same reasons other people (not necessarily me ,etc) like him?

[Raoul Duke]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gt_R
Hmm...Duke mate, its amazing how you insist that people have the rights to have their own opinion, yet blast Quino with names when he believed that your arguments are pointless and incorrect. And to make matters worst, you actually called him names for the wrong reasons.
While i do take all your opinions to mind, and i do believe that you have reasons to justify your actions, and SINCE you can PRESUME that somebody is ignorant just by stating his opinions on YOUR opinion, i could also think that you are pretty rude there

Yes, everybody has the right to express their opinion,but when Quino says that my arguments are pointless and incorrect, he is not respecting my right to express my opinions, that is why I "called him names". I try to be civil towards the people I'm arguing with, but if they get personal with me, then it's only natural that I'll get personal with them, in return.
And I was rude to Quino, but that's just because he was rude to me. How you can justify that Quino called my arguments pointless and incorrect, and yet you critisize me for what I said in return(which was merely in defence of the criticism Quino gave me) is somethimg that I cannot fathom. So excuse me if I was being "rude", but I was only defending myself against unfair treatment!.

[Raoul Duke]

Originally posted by riusnow
Don't take this so personally Duke. I know what you're saying.
But I'm wondering if people (not necessarily you or anyone else here) hate MS for the same reasons other people (not necessarily me ,etc) like him?

I'm sorry for loosing my temper with you "riusnow". I was just a little riled up from all that was going on.

[riusnow]

Originally posted by Raoul Duke


I'm sorry for loosing my temper with you "riusnow". I was just a little riled up from all that was going on.

...not a problem. But hey, if us fans get a little carried away at times, how do any of the drivers do it?
I guess that might be part of the reason they get paid in millions (unlike me).

[Quino]

Raoul> If I never could judge your arguments then any discussion would be null and void, wouldn't it?
I am in no way attacking you (believe me, when I'm attacking you will know), Im merely taking your arguments and critizising them. I have somewhat of a tendency doing that whenever I see the opportunity when on a discussionforum. Don't take it so hard, it's certainly not personal. And Im not taking anything personal either, so the namecalling is really not necessary.

Anyway...

First you claim that it's really TGF as a driver you are refering too. Then you claim that you acknowledge his superior talent and what not, but you dislike him for his actions. Thats ok, but I kinda take it that you just don't like Michael Schumacher (he does have an arrogant face, I'll admit that) and are refering to these 2 actions from which you can really nothing conclude about his personality by lack of reference, just because of the useless need to justify your believes. And then theres even the fact that I've seen others soing it. Well, Monza and Silverstone 1995 were probably not intentional but at lest agonizingly stupid. I would dislike an (at times) incompetent driver sooner then a driver who's on edge and incidental even over it. But hey, thats just me.

I think we can agree on Jerez 1997 (Adelaide 1994 showed lack of judgement from both parties, given the circumstances the better part should be given to the attacking party), that was although not calmly planned, defibatly intentional. Unlike you I'm having a hard time concluding anything from that. It's known that people will defend their aim. A F1 worldchampionship is a pretty high aim wouldn't you say? 1997 was a though season. Schumacher was leading the last race, on championshipcourse. The moment Villeneuve placed his action his championship aim was physically being threatened. He just wanted it too bad, I guess. Certainly no example of pure sportsmanship, but I'd have to say "only" human.

[Tristan]

I go away for a couple of days and then THIS comes up!! Yowie!!

IN THE RED CORNER........!!!!!!

Cracking topic Raoul/Quino

Anyway, I thew in my tuppenny worth some pages ago, so I'm sure you don't want to hear it again, but I can see both of your points here. Raoul, it's your turn!!

[Jeanburrasca81]

Tristan, you're a very talented moderator...hehe. But I think now it's enough with this discussion...on the other and...it's funny...please go ahead...lmao!

[EERO]

Quino and Raoul, this is not a warning-consider it a freindly reminder that this forum is supposed to be a fun place. Serious discussion is great, passion is great-a brawl is not.

I appreciate your passion and both of you are making valid points, but please try to temper the tone.

If you guys want to argue on a personal level, take it to the Private Messages.

[Raoul Duke]

Originally posted by Quino
Raoul> If I never could judge your arguments then any discussion would be null and void, wouldn't it?
I am in no way attacking you (believe me, when I'm attacking you will know), Im merely taking your arguments and critizising them. I have somewhat of a tendency doing that whenever I see the opportunity when on a discussionforum. Don't take it so hard, it's certainly not personal. And Im not taking anything personal either, so the namecalling is really not necessary.

I have no problem with you "critizising my arguments", as long as you do it constructively. But you were not constructive, you were blatantly telling me that my voicing my own opinions on this forum was useless. EVERYBODY has
the right to express their opinions, whether or not the majority agree with them.


First you claim that it's really TGF as a driver you are refering too. Then you claim that you acknowledge his superior talent and what not, but you dislike him for his actions. Thats ok, but I kinda take it that you just don't like Michael Schumacher (he does have an arrogant face, I'll admit that) and are refering to these 2 actions from which you can really nothing conclude about his personality by lack of reference, just because of the useless need to justify your believes. And then theres even the fact that I've seen others soing it. Well, Monza and Silverstone 1995 were probably not intentional but at lest agonizingly stupid. I would dislike an (at times) incompetent driver sooner then a driver who's on edge and incidental even over it. But hey, thats just me.

I thought I made myself quite clear, very early on that I never denied the fact that TGF was a very talented driver, but simply I did not aproove of his on-track tactics(which he has demonstrated on more then just 1 or 2 occasions over the past severall years). Yes all the drivers have made mistakes at one time or another in their career. But TGF seems, to me, a little more consistent then the rest. Your claim that I cannot judge TGF, because I can conclude nothing of his character, is not a very convincing argument(to me personally). The vast majority of race fans who like to voice their opinions about particular drivers, on whether they like them or not, have never met the people which they are takling about. Just because I have never met TGF, doesn't mean that I know nothing of his character. When you watch tv long enough, you pick up a few things here and there. And besides, there is more then just "character", when it comes to judging a driver. What he does on the track counts for a lot as well. And it is possible to conclude certain things about their personality, through their driving style( not 100% accurately, but you get my point).

I think we can agree on Jerez 1997 (Adelaide 1994 showed lack of judgement from both parties, given the circumstances the better part should be given to the attacking party), that was although not calmly planned, defibatly intentional. Unlike you I'm having a hard time concluding anything from that. It's known that people will defend their aim. A F1 worldchampionship is a pretty high aim wouldn't you say? 1997 was a though season. Schumacher was leading the last race, on championshipcourse. The moment Villeneuve placed his action his championship aim was physically being threatened. He just wanted it too bad, I guess. Certainly no example of pure sportsmanship, but I'd have to say "only" human.

To me, personally, it appears that TGF was blatantly at fault for both Adelaide 94, and Jerez 97. Both Vileneuve and Hill tried to overtake them on the inside, and TGF turned in on them, blatantly trying to take them out(suceeding the first time, failing the secound time). But hey, that's just my opinion, right?.
Yes, the world championsip is an extremly high and prestigious accomplishment. But, simply, my question is, where is the glory in achieving something, no matter how prestigious, when you have cheated and gone agaisnt the rules, rather then put up a clean fight for it. It's simply not honourable, not moral, and it's a weight that you've got to carry around with you for the rest of your life, knowing that you went against the rules,a and cheated your way to achieving something.

[Quino]

Where would be the glory of Damon Hill winning the 1994 championship while it was painfully clear he was not the best driver?

You choose nice people.
I choose racers.

That's ok.

Neither of us is going to convince the other one.

Don't take it to hard, but I'm saying it again: it's USELESS, POINTLESS, NULL and VOID.

Cya!

[Raoul Duke]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Quino
Where would be the glory of Damon Hill winning the 1994 championship while it was painfully clear he was not the best driver?

I'm not debating whether or not it would have been glorious for Damon, but simply stating that I don't think it was glorious for TGF. And besides, using that logic, you might as well say that it's not glorious for any driver to win with a car that's superiour over the rest(or most) of the field

You choose nice people.
I choose racers.

So you think Damon's not a racer?, well I dissagree, but whatever.



Don't take it to hard, but I'm saying it again: it's USELESS, POINTLESS, NULL and VOID.

There you go again, you think that stubborn, arrogant and pig headed attitude is really appropriate?. I certainly don't call your opinions useless. What makes you think you have the right to call mine useless.
Maybe you should get over this God complex you seem to have. And realise that there is a little thing called freedom of speech.

[EERO]

Guys, youre ticking me off...


Quino and Raoul. You are both valued participants on this forum but I think we have an impass here, and frankly, this thread has become an argument about arguing. As I said before, take private disaggreements to the Private Messaging and leave the discussion inthe forum to the issues.

If you cannot temper yourselves, I will be forced to close the thread.

[Gerard]

Although we do like a heated debate, if you can't accept any criticism, don't get into a discussion.
And we certainly don't like to see people calling each other names.
That's why EERO stepped in.
He reminded you, in a friendly way, of our forum rules.
Please use your e-mail or Private Messaging to fight your war of words and do not spoil the fun for other posters, or your moderator will indeed be forced to close this thread.

[Tristan]

Aw c'mon! It's such FUN to watch!! This is turning into an epic battle. BRILLIANT!!

(i just wish to point out that i do not condone verbal bashing of any kind and i had nothing to do with any resentful posts put up in this topic. Pheew... that should absolve me of blame!! He he he...)

[Run Free]

Originally posted by kuchi
I do respect his skills, we all know that in this moment he is the best driver available.

On the contrary, I deeply despise him for this reasons:

1) He is the most unsportsmanlike driver I've ever seen in f1
2) He is the most cheating driver I've ever seen in f1
3) He' s the most arrogant one
4) He is the fia baby
5) I don't like him as a driver, because is boring, tactical, unable to overtake (he does only when has a car at least 1" faster than the others), and as I said before very, very dirty
6) He's an hypocrit
7) He's blind ("I didn't see him" is his favourite expression)
8) Most of his "victories" are due exclusively to the car and the team, but of course he never admitted this.
9) He has NEVER proved himself: he always had winning cars, and you just CAN'T say that he's fast because he's the FIRST DRIVER FOR CONTRACT. And he never wanted a great driver as team mate. Give him a midfield car, a team mate on a pair, and then see the REAL VALUE of him. Regarding his supposed skills on the wet, whe all have seen what happened in Brazil when he had not the best car :-)

TGF is a "constructed" driver, and I'm afraid that we'll never see the real one.I don't respect his skills because I am sure that they are not great at all, and FOR SURE is not the best driver available: is the only one with the best team totally at his disposal, and this is a different matter.

[Wrex]

Originally posted by Run Free


9) He has NEVER proved himself: he always had winning cars, and you just CAN'T say that he's fast because he's the FIRST DRIVER FOR CONTRACT. And he never wanted a great driver as team mate. Give him a midfield car, a team mate on a pair, and then see the REAL VALUE of him.

I've ignored this thread for a few days, but I must answer this. Run Free - what planet are you on?

Let's start with logic, If he's not that talented:

1. Why do Ferrari pay him so much when they could get ANY DRIVER in the field much cheaper? Is it that nobody wants to drive for a top team?

2. Benetton were not a top team when he joined, neither were Ferrari - he got them there. Where are Benetton now?

3. If the Ferrari is the only reason he wins, why does'nt another 'top' driver come and take over. Do you think Ferrari have that much loyalty to him that they would lose rather than upset him. If I were the greatest driver in F1, and felt nobody knew it, I would jump at the chance to race next to him to prove how good I was. But Villenurve won't will he?

When you suggest putting him a midfield team to see how he goes, look at where he started and how he went.

I agree with earlier posters that in the past his ethics & tactics have been highly questionable, after Adelaide, I hated him. But time has past, he has matured as a driver IMO, and I won't hate him forever because of something he did 50 odd races ago.

You don't have to like him, but please don't tell me he lacks talent.