Problems with Schumacher

papabaz · 28 Mar 2001, 16:06 (Ref:74988)

I've been trying real hard now for at least 8 years, but I still don't seem to be able to have this big problem with Michael Schumacher. Even worse, I like to see him win. Which, combined with the results of the season so far, even gives me this strange happy feeling.
Maybe someone can get me out of this dream and explain to me why I shouldn't like him?

512_BB · 28 Mar 2001, 16:46 (Ref:74995)

I'm sorry that I have to agree with you. Being a strong competitor myself I give him credit for trying to win at all costs. Granted he does step over the lines of good sportsmanship while on the track. So I do have a few problems with him in that respect.

TGF may have a huge ego, I'm afraid I would too if I was one of the Deities of motorsport. It's too bad that Dale Earnhart is not around to teach TGF the way to be a jerk on the track and still be loved by the fans.

Heeltoe6 · 28 Mar 2001, 17:23 (Ref:75005)

I also agree, never understood this irrational hatred of Schumacher. The guy is simply good, and people don't like to admit that.

enemy-ace · 28 Mar 2001, 17:50 (Ref:75013)

I'm not a fan of Schumacher but i do respect his talent. However hating the man is irrational, since he is only a racing driver and has no direct influence on my life. What i do fail to see however, is how being a strong competitor and having a win at all costs attitude are related. If anything they are direct opposites. Being a strong competitor implies to me, is knowing how to win and lose with a sense of dignity and grace. I would rather lose with respect than win by pushing my competitor off!
Having said that Schumacher i believe is maturing, but he still has that me first attitude that just doesn't wash!
Look at last year when his swerving at the start was decried as dangerous and he shrugged it off, and yet when Villeneuve passed him on the outside at Estoril he screamed because he felt it to be dangerous. What's good for Schuey isn't good for the rest.

TimD · 28 Mar 2001, 17:51 (Ref:75015)

Yes, same here.

I'm not a die-hard fan. I don't like his methods very much - if at all. But he's quick. By heaven, he's quick. And he seems a personable enough fellow outside the cockpit. So I agree - why the huge animosity?

There are many drivers I am a bigger fan of, but I'm quite happy to see a Schumacher win of a Sunday.

Jeanburrasca81 · 28 Mar 2001, 21:12 (Ref:75072)

I adore TGF as a driver, and I'm far away from hating him. It's just that most people don't like his character...he is so arrogant and sometimes seems not to have real emotions...I don't think he hasn't emotions but isn't able to show them.

Liz · 29 Mar 2001, 02:14 (Ref:75159)

He's boring. Boring boring boring. Who wants to see a season with nothing in the Win column but ditto marks?

It's not his fault he's racing in a weak field or that things have been arranged so that he can do as he pleases and still get those ditto marks ...

But who wants to pay $260 to sit in a seat and see ditto marks?

papabaz · 29 Mar 2001, 02:27 (Ref:75165)

Maybe I'll change my mind as soon as I find out what ditto marks are, but until then...

How about a field of 22 schumacher-like drivers then? Now that would be an action-packed event. And if Schumacher's driving style is rated "boring", more than half the field must be rated "dead".

What does TGF mean btw?

EERO · 29 Mar 2001, 03:06 (Ref:75170)

Hey, Papabaz, i haven't had a chance to welcome you. Glad to have you here.

TGF stands for "That German Fellow", used when discussing the chances of victory by other drivers in relation to "That German Fellow"'s chances.

It was a coinage of Liz, quickly adopted on the forum during Schuey's sabbatical two season's ago.

papabaz · 29 Mar 2001, 03:19 (Ref:75174)

Thanx EERO

As a fan of 'TGF' it looks like I have a lot of 'work' to do here, so I guess you'll hear from me a lot

Raoul Duke · 29 Mar 2001, 03:54 (Ref:75176)

I'll give you my reasons for not liking TGF. He's a cheat. Remember Adelaide 94?, Jerez 97?. I sure do. It appears he would rather win by ramming his competitor off the track then loose with dignity. More recently there was the pathetic attempt at squeezing Hakkinen into wall at the sart of the Suzuka race last year, which didn't even work, btw. I can name of severall other examples where TGF actions lost me my respect for him. What's the point of winning if you can't do it cleanly?, and pushing someone off the track, I'm sorry to say, is not a respectable way to behave, it's the cowards way out, it's simply not honourable. I would rather support someone who doesn't feel the need to resort to those type of cheap, dirty tactics in order to win. And most of the drivers out there seem to understand that concept.
I just hope that Ralfie doesn't decide to take after his big brother one day. But I'm sure that he won't.

downforce · 29 Mar 2001, 06:14 (Ref:75188)

its nicer to be brilliant and controversial than brilliant and dumb (Jacques punting off Ralf in Montreal and taking Ralf's 'behind' to kill an innocent man @ Melb!!)

As a genuine/hardcore Michael Schumacher fan I pray and hope he takes the Toyota deal...I do NOT enjoy him in a great-handling car! Its the coming-from-behind-win that tastes sweet not the boring lead-from-front!

papabaz, TGF stands for 'The German Ferrari' and yeah you have lots to do get ur say in. Welkom.

Raoul Duke · 29 Mar 2001, 06:29 (Ref:75192)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by downforce
its nicer to be brilliant and controversial than brilliant and dumb (Jacques punting off Ralf in Montreal and taking Ralf's 'behind' to kill an innocent man @ Melb!!)

The Marshal's death in Melbourn was a freak accident, I really don't think it's fair to place blame on JV, or anybody. And if you ask me anyway, Micheals move on JV in Jerez, fits into that dumb catigory.

As a genuine/hardcore Michael Schumacher fan I pray and hope he takes the Toyota deal...I do NOT enjoy him in a great-handling car! Its the coming-from-behind-win that tastes sweet not the boring lead-from-front!

When does that ever happen in F1. And as good as he is, TGF would have a difficult time winning in a midfield car. That said, it would probably be easier for him then most.
Anyway, It may be more interesting for the spectators, but put yourselves in the drivers positions. Either you drive for Ferrari, and win many races and be a championship favourite, or drive for a mediocre midfield team have a fighting chance to win if you are brilliant, and not having a good chance to win if you are average.

neutral · 29 Mar 2001, 07:07 (Ref:75198)

Michael will retire as the most successful and undoubtedly one of the greatest drivers to bless the sport. Like Senna before him, Michael is at times controversial, but his talent can not be denied. Ive heard that people dont realise how much they love something until they've lost it. This will be the case once Michael retires. Michael Schumacher is Formula 1 at present, and trying to imagine the sport without him is difficult at best. Love him or hate him, he will surely be missed.

"Victory belongs to the most persevering."
—Napoleon Bonaparte

"The men who succeed are the efficient few. They are the few who have the ambition and will power to develop themselves."
—Herbert N. Casson

"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education alone will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent."
—Calvin Coolidge

Airhead · 29 Mar 2001, 11:34 (Ref:75226)

Michael may retire the most successful of GP drivers. I don't doubt this. He will never retire the greatest due to his all to human flaws in character.

Some do call him TGF, but still others refer to him as TGW. I know where I am. Do you? And why - because of the good men who in the face of wrong doing turned away. The current poor moral state of the sport can be traced back to the events of the Championship deciding race in Adelaide.

kuchi · 29 Mar 2001, 12:41 (Ref:75232)

Well to tell you the truth, I do not consider myself a TGF fan, in fact I really hate him a lot. But I ain´t stupid, I do respect his skills, we all know that in this moment he is the best driver available. He is like the villain that must exist for us to enjoy a show, in this case F1. So no matter I hate him, deep inside I think I love him, or something like that.

Tristan · 29 Mar 2001, 15:34 (Ref:75255)

The only reason I don't mind seeing Scumi win is 'cause he's in a Ferrari. The moment ANYONE says they're tired of seeing a FERRARI win, I will.... cry! Lets face it, it's been AGES since they were winning anything.

Regarding TGF, I'm not over enamoured by him as a person. He is straight to the point, and isn't afraid to mince his words, which in some ways is good, but often leads to him coming over as arrogant. It may be just that he is supremely confident of himself. However, it's not like I hate the guy or anything. Hellm I'd rather see him win than McLaren winning AGAIN!!

renaultbel · 29 Mar 2001, 15:51 (Ref:75260)

Yo dont like him because he is always cheating with the cars.
Fuel, elektronics, Traction controle and maybe more that we dont know.
For me I would be happy if Panis is back on top and would win a race.

~~Renaultbel~~

Murph · 29 Mar 2001, 16:52 (Ref:75267)

"Some do call him TGF, but still others refer to him as TGW. I know where I am. Do you? And why - because of the good men who in the face of wrong doing turned away. The current poor moral state of the sport can be traced back to the events of the Championship deciding race in Adelaide."

Gee.... I call him Michael Schumacher.

hmmmmm.... I must disagree with your statement that the current moral state of the sport can be traced back to Adelaide '94. Suzuka Oct. 10, 1991 predates Adelaide by 4 years....... another that comes to mind.... Estoril in 1988. As Jackie Stewart stated after Schumacher's assault on Jacques... Schumacher learned ( the end DOES JUSTIFY the means) from Senna....and I have read in F1 RACING recently that Jenson Button saw nothing wrong with Ayrton & Michael's "win at all costs" philosophy.... yikes!

But to be honest since my first race in the flesh (1972 Mosport )...... a lack of "morality" in f1 has not been uncommon...... Ken Tyrrell and his water ballast, Monza in 1976 and the trumped up charges of illegal fuel used by McLaren & Penske in qualifying to keep them off the grid, the "mob rule" at Brands Hatch in '76 that scared the authorities to permit James Hunt to make the re-start and win (though his points were taken away later in the year), the whole FOCA/FISA fiasco..... Heck I was only 5 years old but there are those rumors of the legality of Jean Behra's 2-litre Gordini's which won the 1952 Reims Grand Prix....something about the engine actually being 2 and one half litres.... but it was a French car winning soooooooooooooo.....

So, Adelaide '94 was not the begining of the end.....unless one has blinders on...

take care, all

Murph

Raoul Duke · 29 Mar 2001, 19:55 (Ref:75305)

Yes, I know that TGF is not the only one to use those tactics. Even the late Dale Earhardt was known for his occasional on track thugery. And as saddened as I am by the loss of Dale Earnhardt, it will not change my opinions on his driving style. Sorry if that sounds to harsh, but that's just how I feel.
But I stand by my earlier comments. Any driver who is prone to such things as bumping another driver off the track, is not a driver who has my respect, much less if he does it on purpose. Sure all the drivers have done it at one time or another in their careers. But the difference is TGF has done it often over the course of his career, and I might not even dislike him so much if it weren't for the couple of times where his moves were intentional(adelaide 94, Jerez 97, Suzuka 2000)

Tristan · 30 Mar 2001, 16:42 (Ref:75482)

OK, Adelade was a little suspect, Damon came from behind but Schumi should have seen him. Did he? We'll never know.

Jerez was dirty, Villeneuve was past, the right front wheel of the Ferrari hit the SIDEPOD of Villeneuve's car.

But Suzuka 2000?? What exactly was wrong with that start?? Are you telling me Mika wouldn't have pulled EXACTLY the same move had he been on pole??

This debate is going to rumble on for YEARS to come.....

Quino · 30 Mar 2001, 17:03 (Ref:75483)

Yes well...judging is always easy.

both events took place in a championship deciding matter. It doesn't occur very often that a championship is actually decided in a manner in which the two titlecandidates are racing eachother(!) for the position that would tie down the championship. Well it happened in 1990 and Senna did it far more obviously than Schumacher ever did. Schumacher found himself twice in the before mentioned circumstance. What other driver found himself in this circumstance and let his title-rival through without a fight or even a little well placed nudge?

To which driver are you comparing Schumacher when you hold his behaviour in Adelaide 1994 and Jerez 1997 against him?

Tristan · 30 Mar 2001, 17:15 (Ref:75486)

...and if it were to happen in the mid-grid of a mid-season race no one would bat an eyelid.

badoer fan · 30 Mar 2001, 17:20 (Ref:75488)

I totally agree Tristan. In Malaysia '99 Diniz did exactly the same thing to Badoer, as TGF did to Jacques at Jerez, and no-one cared.

Quino · 30 Mar 2001, 18:00 (Ref:75495)

The point is:

Does the fact that both occasions were championshipdeciders make it worse or more understandble? From a psyhcolocical point of view, I would have to say the latter.

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