Would you care for a "Distorted ovals" contest?

[Yannick]

All this talk in IndyCar circles about trying to achieve parity in the number of ovals VS street/road courses on the calendar of the series again, and re-watching old races summaries from the 80s has made me think of another track type they used to run in the CART days, which technically would count for BOTH of the relatively new Oval Championship (AJ Foyt Trophy) and the "Twisties" Championship (Mario Andretti Trophy) staged nowadays in IndyCar:

I'm of course talking about the so-called "distorted oval". Examples for this track type would be the perimeter circuit of the Las Vegas Caesar's Palace GP track, which CART ran on in the 80s, and the New Jersey Meadowlands GP track. Rick Mears, though being more of an oval specialist, seemed to be rather good at Meadowlands, whereas the road course specialists were good there, too. Also, for these type of tracks, the yellow flag rules for ovals were applied.

So I feel, if you stage 2 trophies for both types of circuits, you should ideally also have the hybrid of both on the calendar at least once, counting for both championships.

And it would also be a possibility to bring oval type racing somewhat closer to the cities where the spectators are, because most of the "distorted ovals" were temporary tracks.

Now, my fellow track designers, if you're interested in this topic, I would like to invite you to design your own "distorted oval" type of track. Sketch-up, Microsoft Paint, scanned designs on paper, everything is accepted.
Brooklands clones are not accepted, though, because that type of racing is deemed way too dangerous these days, and there is a reason it's been abolished.

As an inspiration to you, I would have liked to add a map of the Meadowlands GP track, but unfortunately, I couldn't find it anywhere. But there are some CART races from there on youtube, just like from the Caesar's Palace perimeter circuit.

Thanks in advance for your contributions!

[Yannick]

Pictured below are the role models for this contest, the so-called "distorted ovals" used by CART for the Meadowlands GP (in 1988-91) and the Caesars Palace GP (in 1983-84), courtesy of theracingline dot net. Looking at the videos, they proved to be rather racy back then.

Would such a thing work with the current type of IndyCars? How should such a track look like today?

[Quintin03]

Hmm, interesting idea Yannick. I suppose there's a need for some more specific rules first though. I guess the track has to be counterclockwise, or at least it should, between about 1 and 3 miles in length to conform with an oval, mostly flat with at most minor banking, have at most five or six proper right turns, not considering curved straights or minor direction changes and a generally fast layout. Seems like a good challenge and perhaps something good to get me started up again.
Here's some videos:
Meadowlands, 1990
Ceasar's Palace, 1983, the map indicates a single right turn at the end of the lap, but the video indicates quite clearly that there is none.
I'd also suggest another example:

It might be on the long end of the scale, but it certainly has everything you'd expect of a distorted oval.
So, that's the inspiration done, I've got to get busy on turning it into a design.

[SpeedingTortoise]

Trying to think of tracks still in use as inspiration, would Thruxton count as a distorted oval or a really fast road course? I'm also thinking of Snetterton (before the 300 upgrade), Falkenburg, Pukekohe and Symmons Plain as being in this borderline territory between oval and road course.

[Yannick]

Yes indeed, Quintin, your example of the original Silverstone clearly indicates that there is a more clear definition needed for what makes up a "distorted oval" because Silverstone most certainly is not one. And not just because it's clockwise as opposed to a distorted oval which would need to be run anticlockwise. Those kinks in the opposite direction to the main corners of the distorted oval (like Abbey, Maggots and Chapel) would break up the flow of a "distorted oval" because they are not two-wide. I'm not sure if slightly curved straights would work in their place.

I like your definiton regarding banking of corners, track length, and allowing for curved straights. However, I don't agree with the number of right turns you would allow. I think sharp left-handers and left-handed kinks should be counted amongst the non-oval type corners. The limit of 5 or 6 of these sounds good on paper but when you think about an oval having mainly just 4 corners, will you really get a track that feels a little like an oval when it has got 8 corners or more? I guess not.

The street circuit Alemannenring at Singen, Germany, which was used by DTM for a while, certainly comes close to a "distorted oval" but is not one, either. I guess that you can either have left-right-combinations or a hairpin but not both, should be included in the definition. What do you think?

The Marrakesh Street Circuit certainly comes close to being a distorted oval. It's just those chicanes that make it easily debatable whether it actually is one or not.

Mostly missing any elevation changes should be included within the criteria of the "distorted oval", too. I guess this criteria would help with excluding Silverstone, too, don't you think?

Norisring, on the other hand, is not a distorted oval because of the "no Esses and hairpin on the same track"-rule.

I'd say the first corner must be one of the main left-handers of the oval part of the track. That would rule out a Snetterton that's run in opposite direction.

Pukekohe run in the opposite direction would not qualify due to the then-first corner being a right-hander, even though, at first glance, it looks fairly similar conceptually when compared to Meadowlands.

Symmons Plain is interesting because it actually is run anti-clockwise. It's got 2 oval type corners plus the hairpin. But the combination of hairpin and Esses rules it out of being a "distorted oval" though it's definitely close. Am I applying my criteria for this track type too strictly here? What do you think?

SpeedingTortoise, unfortunately, I don't know the Falkenburg track nor where it is located.

However, an anticlockwise Reims Gueux would easily qualify, only if it were not so long. Three miles is already a whole lot. Maybe 2.5 miles is enough a a maximum for a distorted oval?

Let's discuss this definition of the "distorted oval" some more and then, let's find a definition together. Thanks for joining in, guys!

[SpeedingTortoise]

Originally Posted by Yannick

SpeedingTortoise, unfortunately, I don't know the Falkenburg track nor where it is located.

It would help if I spelled it correctly...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkenbergs_Motorbana

I think the only thing you are being too strict on is direction as the majority of road courses are clockwise. I think the rule 'the first corner must be one of the main left-handers of the oval part of the track' should be changed to 'the first corner must be in the direction of the circuit i.e. clockwise - right and anti clockwise - left.

[Yannick]

Originally Posted by SpeedingTortoise

It would help if I spelled it correctly...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkenbergs_Motorbana

Thank you. Falkenbergs Motorbana certainly would qualify as a "distorted oval" in its original version without the chicane. It's got Esses but no hairpin (check), 4 oval type corners (check), it's just that the direction is the wrong way around. Maybe, the elevation changes would rule it out. I don't know about them.

But, looking at the Brands Hatch Indy configuration, which really should be amongst the blueprints for this type of track, many of the criteria I mentioned in my previous posting need a serious re-think. Brands is clockwise, has got noticeable elevation changes, and has got both Esses and a hairpin (Druids). Well, maybe I should sleep over this at least once, after all ...

I think the only thing you are being too strict on is direction as the majority of road courses are clockwise. I think the rule 'the first corner must be one of the main left-handers of the oval part of the track' should be changed to 'the first corner must be in the direction of the circuit i.e. clockwise - right and anti clockwise - left.

The Brands Hatch example makes this one really difficult to decide. Yet the Esse at Brands begins with a left, which means the Brands Indy circuit has got at least one corner at the end of a straight which runs in the other direction than the direction of the circuit (read: it should turn right for a clockwise track). More questions arise.

However, when I look for examples amongst my own track designs from the past, I find Divoea (the first attached graphic) to almost not qualify as a distorted oval because it does not fit the "corner at the end of a straight must be a left-hander" rule for counterclockwise circuits. Yet, this corner is a long kink that definitely can be run two-wide, so it is exempt from the rule.
I'm shaking my head at how complicated it is to come up with an easy definition for "distorted ovals". Divoea even has a banked turn (Turn 3). So disregarding the chicane, it qualifies.

Ulmenberg (the 2nd attached graphic) is a reconstructed oval circuit which has one of the corners at the end of a straight go in the wrong direction, too, but it is not a two-wide kink. From the way the circuit was developed, it would be hard not to call it a "distorted oval".

So all that's left for me to do is accuse myself of nitpicking when it comes to the definition, and admit that I cannot come up with an easy definition all by myself.

Thank you SpeedingTortoise for sticking with me through this and taking part in trying to come up with a good definition for "distorted oval" circuits.

What do you think of these above mentioned examples which all come close?

[SpeedingTortoise]

I think we have to consider the speed of the course as well bearing in mind its length. I would say Brands Hatch Indy isn't a distorted oval because Druids hairpin is too slow for the track. Divoea isn't a distorted oval for me because there are too many slow corners on it, the hairpin and the final 2. Ulmenberg is a distorted oval and its a brilliantly simple track. Well done on that. I've also thought of a few more real-life examples; Mallory Park (not sure about this because of the hairpin), Donington (National layout) and chicane-less Monza and old Hochenheim.

[Yannick]

Well, you raise some big questions there by mentioning iconic road courses like the original Monza and the original Hockenheim. I'd say the latter is close to being a "distorted oval" and would easily qualify were it not for its length whereas the former remains a road course due to the Vialone (now Ascari) corner being in the opposite direction of that of the circuit. And having a parabolica on an oval seems wrong to me, even though the "Mickyard" (Walt Disney World Speedway) has an inverse one as one of its oval turns.

Thank you for the kudos on Ulmenberg. That one was conceived a long, long time ago but remains one of my favourites amongst my own designs. Yet, I have never considered it anything but a road circuit until now.

Donington National is not a "distorted oval" because of the chicane and if you could remove it properly, the lack of a 2nd straight in place of the Craner Curves to Old Hairpin section. I guess that would be the same reason why the original Dijon Prenois cannot be considered a "distorted oval": it lacks a 2nd straight.

I guess I overexaggerated the tightness of final 2 corners of Divoea. The final corner is sharp but the penultimate one is meant to be more like Stowe from Silverstone. I guess I made lots of drawing errors back in the day.

But now, let me say goodnight to you for a while. I hope we can continue to discuss this later.

[Quintin03]

Rather than discuss the definition of distorted oval for ages, let's actually try making some. Here's my first attempt: Denver Pepsi Center.
Let me know your thoughts.

[Yannick]

Thank you Quintin for your contribution. The Denver Pepsi Center Circuit is very nice and has got a great flow and fits the concept to a T. How long might that track be?
Texas Motor Speedway boss Eddie Gossage probably wouldn't like a good track like this one suddenly popping up in his neighborhood, though ;-)

I would recommend you edit the pitlane exit to come out onto the track after Turn 1 because it looks somewhat like it would spill outgoing cars onto the racing line. And there is enough space on the inside of Turn 1 for the pitlane to carry on a little further down the road.

Here's hoping for further contributions to this thread.

[Quintin03]

Originally Posted by Yannick

How long might that track be?

About 1.9 km or 1.2 Mi, spot on when it comes to length.

Originally Posted by Yannick

I would recommend you edit the pitlane exit to come out onto the track after Turn 1 because it looks somewhat like it would spill outgoing cars onto the racing line. And there is enough space on the inside of Turn 1 for the pitlane to carry on a little further down the road.

I had the same idea, but wasn't entirely sure. I'll get it fixed though.

Originally Posted by Yannick

Here's hoping for further contributions to this thread.

I've already got a permanent track in the works, so here's hoping other people can contribute as well.

[SpeedingTortoise]

My take on a distorted oval. 2.07mi Anticlockwise No Elevation

[Yannick]

Originally Posted by SpeedingTortoise

My take on a distorted oval. 2.07mi Anticlockwise No Elevation

Wow, this is a beautiful old-school road course. I would love to see DTM cars on this. It could turn out to be as great as their one and only Dijon race.

[Mr Pink]

About Falkenberg, there's some elevation changes. Here´s a video from before they put in the chicane. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbXZUmqOAw0

Edit: That Denver circuit is really nice Quintin!

[Quintin03]

It's really hard to outdo such a beautiful track like that, SpeedingTortoise. I'm certain it would produce beautiful high speed battles.
To Mr Pink, thanks for the compliment. Most of it's already there, but you just have to know about it and how to turn it into something raceable again.

Now, I'd like to present to you the permanent track I'd promised. It's on the short end of the scale at 1.3 Mi/2.1 km, but it's wide, 15 metres all track and 20 metres at start/finish. Originally I designed it for anticlockwise racing, but I realised the layout also suits well for clockwise racing. This was a bit of a challenge with run-off and getting the pit exits/entries right, but I guess those are unavoidable. Turns 5 and 6, going anticlockwise, are banked at 5 degrees, just so you know.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

1.3 miles is the size of Knockhill, which is probably the "anti-oval", given it has huge elevation change, a chicane, a hairpin and off camber corners.

[Quintin03]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

1.3 miles is the size of Knockhill, which is probably the "anti-oval", given it has huge elevation change, a chicane, a hairpin and off camber corners.

I wasn't exactly under the impression that 1.3 miles was too short, especially given that it's longer than the examples Ceasar's Palace and Meadowlands, though I had considerd scaling it up to one and a half times the size, but it's a good comparison.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Ok, here's mine:

2.6km, clockwise!

Fly-around lap - http://youtu.be/RCLg1Lron0I

Selby

[adam46]

What about a real life High Speed Ring from the Gran Turismo games?

[Yannick]

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

Ok, here's mine:

2.6km, clockwise!

Fly-around lap - http://youtu.be/RCLg1Lron0I

Selby

Wow, this is fast! Thanks for this one. But where is your pitlane?


In regards to how the whole contest has developed, I'm surprised that there are so many clockwise entries. You guys all seem to prefer clockwise over anticlockwise. Why? When I first started out designing my own tracks, most of those early designs were anticlockwise. I had to try hard to actually come up with my first clockwise design, and even then, it felt kind of like going in the wrong direction. Do you know that feeling? Well, I guess that's a topic for another thread entirely, but feel free to reply it here, too.

[Yannick]

Now here is my take on the subject, which is a little "over the top". I did not want to go back to what I had already done with Ulmenberg (see page 1 of this thread, amongst others). Instead, I purposely loaded my design with gimmicks (a proper oval turn on a semi-permanent street circuit and a double-crossover) to keep it from being boring.

It's a semi-permanent racetrack that runs anticlockwise. Track length should be approximately 1.75 miles. The nonpermanent part of the track can be easily distinguished from the permanent part by the escape roads that are in place in every one of its corners.

Thus, Turn 1 leads from the nonpermanent onto the permanent part of the racetrack. Turn 2 is a proper oval Turn, banked at 7 degrees. At the end of the 2nd straight, the permanent part crosses over the non-permanent part of the track twice, leading into Turn 3 which is banked at 3 degrees. After that, it's back onto the streets under heavy braking for the final left-hander on the lap, Turn 4 which is like out of a street circuit. So is the final corner, Turn 5, the only right-hander which has got the pitlane entrance in one of its escape roads.

I guess as far as corner shapes are concerned, this rather conceptual track leaves something to be desired, but at least, the 2nd straight bends slightly to the right. I hope you like it anyway.

[Quintin03]

It seems that there's beauty in simplicity. Good one Dan.

Originally Posted by adam46

What about a real life High Speed Ring from the Gran Turismo games?

Would probably be a good one, but I haven't seen Polyphony Digital log in to these forums yet.

And Yannick, I must say I like what you've got there. Four good left turns with quite a bit of variation ending in a tight double apex. Certainly that'd be something great to see indycars drive on. Now we only need to find a city with this road layout and some space to build T2 in.

[Beetle]

Originally Posted by adam46

What about a real life High Speed Ring from the Gran Turismo games?

More like Special Stage Route 7!

(iRacing and GT5 nut here... )

[SKG]

Heres my take. 2.2km for the oval (clockwise), the inner configs are oriented towards testing rather than racing.