Pironi was a cheat?

[Peter Mallett]

I am struggling with something that was said in another thread. It goes along the lines that in some people's minds Pironi cheated when he beat Villeneauve in their final race together. For those who don't know, the deal was that GV was leading at the crucial part of the race so he was nominated as the winner and failing mechanical problems that would be the finishing order. Both cars couls have gone faster but theyt didn't need to and so GV kept his pace down.

Pironi decided to overtake and so GV planted the right foot and re-took his team mate.

Eventually Pironi re-took the lead just before the line and GV finished second.

Many people blame this action for the death of GV because at the next race (Zolder 1982) he was busting his guts to beat Pironi.

Now, most definitely Pironi lied after the event. He definitely broke some kind of agreement. But did he cheat? I don't think so. He was not subject to any sporting rules, nor was he in any kind of legally bound agreement to stay behind.

Ferrari may have wanted GV to win but when they got first and second, they had no need to censure Pironi.

Anybody got any thoughts on this?

[marcus]

that was by no means cheating..maybe a tad unsportsmanlike but still it just proved that the fastest driver should win and how often was pironi faster than Gilles anyway??

I just think the whole situation was sad looking back on it now..should pironi have passed gilles?? i dont know should gilles have taken it to heart and tried to hard at the next meeting?? I dont know this one either but it showed that Gilles only wanted to win and was prepared to do anything to win but there was never any cheating in my mind.

[angst]

One of the reasons they were going so slowly was because the Ferraris were marginal on fuel. The lap times tell the story accurately, in that when Villeneuve was ahead he pulled the speed right back, when Pironi went ahead (only to let Villeneuve through again, until that last lap) the pace went up. Villeneuve said, before his crash at Zolder, that he couldn't understand at the time what Pironi was playing at, they could have run out of fuel. Imagine that, running out of fuel while leading the race 1 -2 (in Ferraris, at Imola!!!!!).
They both fully understood the situation regarding 'team orders' or more accurately 'team protocol'. Villeneuve had kept to this protocol himself when sitting behind Scheckter at Monza '79 (handing the championship to his teammate in the process. He said that he hoped that Scheckter would break down, but that it never entered his head to break the agreement/protocol)
Did he cheat? In terms of the regulations of F1 no, but he definately cheated Villeneuve out of a win that should have been his. So yes, in my opinion he cheated.

[Tris]

To my mind Pironi did cheat...

He was only able to pass Gilles on the final lap as Gilles was relaxing and he changed gear a couple of thousand RMP early. Villeneuve never suspected that he would be passed on the final lap. He assumed all the passing was to please the tifosi.

I think half of my problem with Didier was that Ferrari was Villeneuve's team. He went out of the way to make Pironi feel at home in the team and then Pironi shafted him. Pironi subsequently admitted that he knew what he was doing that day.

[Tris]

Originally posted by angst

They both fully understood the situation regarding 'team orders' or more accurately 'team protocol'.

Hi angst!

Talking to someone who is "close" the the sport of that era I am led to belive that Ferrai "protocol" was written into Villenuve's and Pironi's contracts...

[SL]

No he did not "Cheat" that would amount to breaking a written rule which he did not.

It was unsportsmanlike in having an agreement which he then broke, this in some respects is worse than cheating as it destroyed the team, indirectly leading to Villenuve's death.

I think DC is still waiting for repayment of the favour he done to MH in Aussie 4 odd years ago.

SL

[Tris]

Originally posted by SL

No he did not "Cheat" that would amount to breaking a written rule which he did not.

Hi SL......

I am sure that there was somthing written into the Ferrari contracts of that era that stipulated that if the drivers held first and second in the race they were to hold formation to the checkered flag. This wwould constitute a "written rule." Luckily I know just who to ask to find out for sure ... bear with me

[chunder]

The big problem with was that the team held out the SLOW board to both drivers.
Gilles subsequently admitted that lap times slowed considerably when he was in front and if he had shown himself to be the quicker earlier in the race after Arnoux had retired.
As mentinoned by someone else, Gilles was a great believer in racing etiquette, possibly one of the last true racers and he simply could not believe that Didier had broken his AND the team's promise.
This allied to the fact that he and Scheckter performed similar arrangements throughout 1979 meant Gilles would to this day not have forgiven Pironi for what he did.
I am sure that had the events at Imola not taken place, Gilles would not have been trying so hard to beat the Frenchman in Zolder qualifying.

[Tris]

Even in the late 70's Gilles was described as have arrived a generation too late.

I think the decisive factor in Villeneuve’s death was not Pironi but qualifying tyres. Gilles had often been vocal about the absurdity of having tyres tat were at their best for only one lap on a crowded track. For Gilles on that lap at Zolder the anachronism “do or die” has never been used more appropriately.

[angst]

Quite Tris. I never believed Pironi to be responsible for Villeneuve's death, I don't know if he would have been trying quite as hard if he wasn't so angry about his teammates duplicity - that is something we will never know - but it was something he was very vocal about (qualifying tyres) that really got him, along with the cars themselves, which he hated.
I think if you're going to blame Pironi, you should also point the finger at Marco Piccinni, who backed up Pironi's version of events, I think that made Villeneuve even angrier, that some credence was given to Pironi's lies.

[Peter Mallett]

Interesting.

Anybody noticed the direction this topic is heading?

[djb]

While Pironi's actions certainly played a part in Villeneuve's aggressiveness in qualifying, I am uncomfortable with statements that put the blame on him for G.V's death. Remember, it was a belt failure or an error in the attaching of the belts that resulted in him being thrown from the car, and while it is tempting to think of "what ifs", that's what happened...
Despite saying this, I agree strongly with the fact that breaking the accepted rule, policy or whatever it was, was entirely unacceptable and unsportsmanlike. To me, it is not a question of cheating, but just plain bottom line respect for giving your word to an agreement and sticking to it, as the references to Villeneuve and Scheckter show the importance of this to Villeneuve.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by djb
..............................To me, it is not a question of cheating, but just plain bottom line respect for giving your word to an agreement and sticking to it, as the references to Villeneuve and Scheckter show the importance of this to Villeneuve.

I agree with this sentiment. But then, we look at DC and Mika in '98 and there's an outcry.

[djb]

exactly, and I'm sure that I wasn't the only one shaking their heads at the kafuffle over DC being pretty darn honorable, given M.H's odd pitstop-mistake, mixup or whatever. Anyway, it showed that DC is a decent fellow and the overreaction to "team tactics" by the FIA was really rather silly, considering that other incidents, in my opinion, merit looking into more closely.

[djb]

As an aside to this discussion, which I have found interesting, and has made me think back all those years ago, I just stumbled upon a F1 archive site run by a Russian fellow. To make this short, I have just seen the footage of Villeneuve's crash for the first time since 1982, when I was 18 and watching it in my best friends basement. Strange feelings seeing it again. There's no real point to this except that, as a relative newcomer to the internet, I find it fascinating how we can have access to info and ideas with this medium, despite its limits and alot of stuff you should only take on face value.

[Peter Mallett]

Djb,

I remember exactly what I was doing when it happened. I was standing in a bar next to the river Dee in Banchory Scotland drinking a pint of "heavy". There were some Aberdeen supporters in the adjacent bar shouting a bawling because Aberdeen had just won a cup game (possibly the Scottish cup final?). I remember being quite sad that the football supporters showed such little respect for what was occurring before our eyes on the TV news bulletin.