How to get more overtaking into F1...

[Damon]

Here's a somewhat expensive yet I'm sure effective way of possibly getting more overtaking back into F1. The racing line on each circuit could be made some how, less grippy than the off line parts of the circuit. We all know at the moment that when you go off line the car gets on to the marbles and grip is lost thus making it very difficult to make a move stick. Of the off line part of the ciucuit was more gippy it would be far easier pass into, through and out of corners.

Any ideas?

[mac]

1 - make cars less reliant on aerodynamics. Give em slicks again for more grip of line. I say make em formula ford type cars with no electronics, no aero packages, more powerful engines and fat, slick tyres.

2 - Get rid of stupid tracks like Hungary and Barcelona. Go racing at places where you can actually race.

[Valve Bounce]

Originally posted by Damon
Here's a somewhat expensive yet I'm sure effective way of possibly getting more overtaking back into F1. The racing line on each circuit could be made some how, less grippy than the off line parts of the circuit. We all know at the moment that when you go off line the car gets on to the marbles and grip is lost thus making it very difficult to make a move stick. Of the off line part of the ciucuit was more gippy it would be far easier pass into, through and out of corners.

Any ideas?

I would like you to think this suggestion through more thoroughly before going any further with this thread. Talk to a pavement engineer, see how road pavements are designed and built. Find out more about the various asphaltic (or bituminous) mixes. Then consider whether what you suggest is really feasible. Then go watch a tape of the CART race in Detroit last weekend and see what happens to tyres when the car runs off line onto the "marbles". Then consider how a car that has just run over the "marbles" would have more grip than a car on the racing line which is swept by the passage of racing cars. These are the first things that you must consider before we can discuss this suggestion sensibly.

[Wrex]

Geeezus Valve - Do you have anymore cold water left

I say do it - Why you ask? - because I hate the voices of reason

[badoer fan]

If you make one bit slippery, doesn't the other bit automaticcaly become the racing line?



BRING BACK SLICKS AND BIG WINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sodemo]

Taken from the "to groove or not to groove thread"

Sodemo says:-

Grooved tyres have long been the bane of my life.
They ARE the worst thing to happen in F1 - ever!

We need to increase Mechanical grip, and massivly decrease areo grip.
Here is what I propose:

1) Return to 92' slicks
2) Reduce rear wing to 1 element, or have a wing with a set surface area just to create drag.
3) Remove wooden plank - replace with titanium plank
4) Ban carbon brakes, use steel only
5) Reduce engine size to 2.8L
6) Ban re-fueling
7) Ban Driver aids (TC, auto gears etc - by having a standard ECU)
8) Increase overall weight of car to 700KGs
9) Ban paddle gearlevers, use stick-CART style sequential boxes
10) Lift ban on V-12's
11) Increase width of cars to 200cm.
thats it!

Whats the chance of this happening? Answer = 0
----------------------------------------------------------------------

[ozywoodwards]

1. ban refueling as this would make drivers attempt to pass, and not let them get into the mindset of waiting for the pitstops.

2. fully manual gearchanges as this means there is more chance of a mistake by the driver in front, therefore letting the chasing driver through.

3. make all cicuits have a long, fast, banked corner leading to a long straight and a hairpin at the end. The banking would negate the aerdynamic problems which don't let cars run close to each other.

[yelwoci]

My pennyworth!

Tyres: I don't believe that Slicks serve any purpose to tyre technology and should banned outright!!
All forms fo motorsport should use road legal tyres!

Wheels: It is ridiculous that F1 runs on 1960s sized wheels.
Increase front wheel size to a minimum 15" and rears to a minimum 16".
Centre/single nut wheel attachment should be replaced with 4-stud. this will have a very significant engineering impact and for pit stops.

Brakes: Carbon brakes still contribute to auto/aviation and carbon technology so should remain. Though I prefer steel.

Aerodynamics: Difficult to know where to start especially given the brain power deployed here. Bigger wheels will help.
Since we all want to increase mech. grip against aero. The rear spoiler should be limited in size and height above rear wheels. This will then automatically limit the front spoiler.

Size: the footprint of an F1 car is much larger than most people reallise. Reduce length and width by 10cm.

Engines: All National motorracing has to comply with noise limits. Even though I like noise, what justification is there for F1 to have a waiver? Since I have to run 105dBA, F1 should atleast run to 120dBA.

Wet Weather: Cars should run some form of spray control.

Just some thoughts!!

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by badoer fan
BRING BACK SLICKS AND BIG WINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Big Slicks yes. Big wings No. Small wings so they rely on mechanical grip.

But I get your drift.

[Airhead]

Originally posted by Peter Mallett


....I get your drift.

good one Pete

[steve nielsen]

Get more drivers like Verstappen into F1, from Arrows.com:


Master of all he overtakes
2001-06-20 09:30:00


Jos' amazing passing games

At a time when overtaking manoeuvres have become a rarity (and therefore a premium) in F1, it is all the more impressive to look back at Jos Verstappen's efforts during the 2001 season.

Over the first eight races of the season, Jos has made a total of 59 separate, successful overtaking moves, averaging an impressive 7 passing manoeuvres per race. In both Sepang and Austria, Jos' 'master blaster' starts gained him 12 and 9 places on the first lap alone, and even on the notoriously unpassable Monaco circuit, he was still able to muscle past 5 other cars on the twisty streets.

So, what is it that enables Jos to sweep past while other drivers flounder? The answer is pretty much down to a combination of pure, aggressive driving, an intuitive awareness of what is going on around him and lightning quick reactions.

Or, as Jos prefers to put it, "Racing with the big boys is what I enjoy the most!"


Race Grid
Position Lap 1
passes Total Overtaking
Moves* Final Position
Australia 15 4 6 10
Malaysia 18 12 13 7
Brazil 17 2 3 DNF
San Marino 17 1 3 DNF
Spain 16 4 4 12
Austria 16 9 14 6
Monaco 18 1 5 8
Canada 13 6 11 DNF


* Overtaking moves do not include passes made due to a pit stop or retirement/crash.
___________________

Well that's pretty impressive.......

[botsquad]

Two sessions:

Session 1. Start as qualified
Session 2. Reverse the top 12 after session one.

[Damon]

Here's another idea, cap saleries at £20,000 a year with £500,000 for a win and £100,000 for every overtaking move that gains them position. Then watch the little swines settle for second place...

[steve nielsen]

Well Damon, Jos would be very rich if they did that

59 times this season x 100000 pounds= 5,900,000 pounds , half season that is!

(and don't forget 66 times last season= 6,600,000 pounds BTW Jos topped the list last season)

[Damon]

You see, the system works . The lower drivers could also end up getting paid for what they deserve.

[Sodemo]

I think to a certain degree there has been an almost negative thought process regarding overtaking in F1. It takes someone like Montoya to show people the cars can overtake. Its almost as if the rest of the field have been in a trance, and have been brainwashed into thinking its impossible to overtake, this no-overtaking culture can only really be removed by a wet race.

[SL]

Open up the regulations to allow.....

Other engines other than 10's.
Differant sized cars, at the moment they are all the same and limit designers creativity.
Slick tyres.


Basicly all designers are limited by such strict regs that new ideas are stillborn. Had these types of regs been in place 50 years ago we would still have front engined cars ! 30 years ago, no turbo's and so on.

I like the idea of an 'overtaking bonus' as well, I can just see TGF cruising around to be last on the grid to gain max $$$. It would be a fight to be last in the Q sessions

Simon

[Don K]

Originally posted by steve nielsen
Over the first eight races of the season, Jos has made a total of 59 separate, successful overtaking moves, averaging an impressive 7 passing manoeuvres per race.

At first I was impressed when he went from 19 to 14.

But he obviously is underperforming at the moment...

[R]

How many passes have the other drivers done? And where can I read this list?

[Gt_R]

As much as i would love to see more overtaking...

i would like to point out Patrick Head's argument on why there should be any overtaking taking place in the first place, when the grid is sorted with the fastest car in front and the slowest at the back. Theoretically...its the problem with the qualifyings...

so the best they can do is to let drivers draw lots and have a random
starting grid, or a grid generated by the computer...

Of course...its a plain silly idea!

[Don K]

Originally posted by R
How many passes have the other drivers done? And where can I read this list?

The list that Steve posted can be found at the
Arrows site.

You could make a list like that, by using lap charts (similar to those on forix.com) that include information about pit stops and crashes.

[R]

Thanks for the info, Don.

[Don K]

Originally posted by Don K
You could make a list like that, by using lap charts (similar to those on forix.com) that include information about pit stops and crashes.

Unfortunately, that still doesn't give us enough information.

This way, we will miss:
- overtaking a driver, and losing that position again later during the same lap
- overtaking a driver, who crashes out or pits later in the same lap
- overtaking a driver, and crashing (or pitting???) later in the same lap.

And we will count:
- overtaking a driver who gets off track, but is able to continue the race.


Anyway, I tried it for the race in Canada (using a lap chart from the dutch magazine "Race Report":

• 0,0: Michael
• 0,0: Ralf
• 0,0: David
• 0,0: Trulli
• 1,4: Rubens
• 0,0: Panis
• 0,0: Raikkonen
• 0,0: Häkkinen
• 0,0: Villeneuve
• 0,1: Montoya
• 0,0: Heidfeld
• 0,0: Zonta
• 4,6: Verstappen
• 0,2: De la Rosa
• 0,0: Irvine
• 0,1: Alesi
• 1,2: Bernoldi
• 0,0: Fisichella
• 0,2: Burti
• 2,3: Button
• 3,3: Marques
• 1,3: Alonso

[Minardi fan]

Jos is most definitely the king of the overtakers. But today's race highlighted that something needs to be done - Ralf just couldn't get past TGF.

[Dino IV]

Building an 'performance'-equation like that isn't as simple as Don K thinks it to be. As we read his findings Jos was the greatest passer with the lacklustre Marques second. Yihaa ...
I've come across better stuff about imaging these things and will try to look it up later this week.

Originally posted by Damon
Here's another idea, cap saleries at £20,000 a year with £500,000 for a win and £100,000 for every overtaking move that gains them position. Then watch the little swines settle for second place...

Very good idea indeed Damon, and not a novelty as well.
For instance three times WDC Nelson Piquet who got a bit 'sloppy' at the end of the eighties with the slowly dying Lotus, was contracted by Flavio (who else ) for Benetton in 1990 under terms like that. Just a very basic, modestly avarage salary, but topped with huge bonusses for scored points. The brilliant Alessandro Nannini, knowing Piquets 'easy-going' reputation, couldn't believe his teammate's pace and determination the first couple of races.