What will be the best T1?

[LuiggiSpeed]

This time I ain't posting no circuits or else, but just a question from a design standpoint, concerning safety.

I have seen some real life circuits where there seems to be a tendency to have pile ups (Catalunya comes to mind)

Say we have to come up with the best T1 to spread out the field a little bit or manage the group with less probability, what would it be?

A chicane?
A decreasing radius?
A high speed sweeper?
A set of esses?
Any other?

DISCUSS

[bio]

Well,
I guess here are certain factors that might play important roles.

- what the elevation changes are before/after T1;
- how long the S/F straight is;
- how wide the track is;
- what kind of section(s) come(s) after T1;
- what we want to achieve with T1;

just to name a few.

As for my case, I guess I usually place a set of esses or a chicane at the end of the S/F straight, and rarely, if ever, a fast corner. I like T1 to be a definite overtaking point.
After T1 I usually include a technical section with corners and no really long straights. And with reason: if I want to stay within the 7 km. lengths put down by the FIA - or, especially if I want to stay withing the 6 km length limit I, myself, like to use, then there is simply no space for more than 2 really long straights (of, say, about 900m - 1 km), and no more than 3 "long" straights that are long enough to create overtaking opportunities at the end of them. And I like to distribute my 2 or 3 straights troughout the track, not group them close together. That's why most of my tracks (or, at least, the ones I created the last 4-5 years) follow a certain pattern:

S/F - technical section - straight - (optional third straight) - technical section - (optional third straight) - S/F

That's really only a general preferance on my side though, not a strict rule I follow every time.

Now, with a general layout like this, it's really a slow T1 that serves the best purpose here, a set of esses or a chicane, or one single small angle corner (of, I'd say, a maximum of 80 degrees) - one that really slows the cars down.

But, as I said, a lot of factors might affect the "corner of choice".

bio

[ECW Dan Selby]

The new chicane at Monza seems to have done a decent job. It's less volatile than the old double left/right chicanes. It also has the option to just take the chicane straight on, which is a good 'get out of jail free' card for anyone that thinks trouble's imminent. You'll often see a few people trundle straight on during the first lap, and that's generally to prevent an accident. It also offers a good chance for an overtake.

Catalunya now has a tarmac run off, which actually caused an accident last year (?) with Toro Rossos and a Force India. I don't think the speed bumps helped in that particular incident, but then again I can totally see the use for them as they prevent people from making beneficial short cuts.

In conclusion, it's tough

Selby

[NaBUru38]

It depends on the cars too. The best first corner for an F1 isn't the same as the best for a touring car.

[dyewat808]

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

The new chicane at Monza seems to have done a decent job. It's less volatile than the old double left/right chicanes. It also has the option to just take the chicane straight on, which is a good 'get out of jail free' card for anyone that thinks trouble's imminent. You'll often see a few people trundle straight on during the first lap, and that's generally to prevent an accident. It also offers a good chance for an overtake.

Catalunya now has a tarmac run off, which actually caused an accident last year (?) with Toro Rossos and a Force India. I don't think the speed bumps helped in that particular incident, but then again I can totally see the use for them as they prevent people from making beneficial short cuts.

In conclusion, it's tough

Selby

This is what I like about chicanes - they are excellent overtaking spots as they encourage bolder moves, because if you fail, you can carry straight on, give up the place if necessary, and then continue as before.

I like Monza very much, because of its simplicity, its straights and its chicanes, especially with T1.

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

It depends on the cars too. The best first corner for an F1 isn't the same as the best for a touring car.

Agreed - thinking BTCC here in particular, where they are quite happy to simply nudge someone out of the way, where a hairpin such as the one at Croft is quite suitable for this purpose.

Must say I was thinking of posting a similar thread to this, though about corners in general, so you beat me to it Luiggi!

[Purist]

Now I'm thinking of that quote from the BTCC race at Oschersleben. The Scottish announcers said, "Whoever designed that corner should be taken into a dark room and beaten."

Actually I have to disagree about Monza. Yes, you now can go straight on, but the old chicane did not accordion the field as much. It was still easily enough of a deceleration zone to allow overtaking.

I would say that you want to start the lap with a moderate to high-speed corner. The old Castrol Esse, with a few exceptions (like 1999), seemed to get things started off okay at the Nurburgring. I would say that, with an esse bend as an opener, you want the first corner to be the tighter one. If the second one is tighter than the first, you tend to get those situations like Barcelona. Brno and Dijon have quick first corners, and seem to have few, first lap melees.

Now, before you guys bring up Paddock Hill Bend at Brands Hatch, you do have to remember that it is unusual with its cambers and elevation change, plus it's not the widest track in the world. Still, I would say it lends itself to, if anything, smaller accidents that are swept to the outside of the corner pretty quickly.

Hairpin-like first turns seem to create a real mess no matter how open they are. It doesn't matter if it's La Source, San Jose, or Cleveland; they produce a real bottleneck with a bunched field.

I think a decreasing-radius corner could reduce the chances of a pile-up, if it's long enough that you have a move gradual deceleration from the end of the strart/finish straight. I wish I could find some video of the bunched F1 or sportscar fields heading into Espiral at Mexico City.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by Purist

Now I'm thinking of that quote from the BTCC race at Oschersleben. The Scottish announcers said, "Whoever designed that corner should be taken into a dark room and beaten."

I'd put money on that being John Cleland

The thing with this is, are you limiting the discussion to T1 on every lap, or just T1 off the start line.

The same corner is effectively two different ones given the starting dynamic.

From the start, it's maybe 400m of brutal acceleration but not top speeds into hard on the brakes two or more wide.

As opposed to a 1000m straight onto the brakes from top speed, with really only one line through it unless brave/stupid enough to shove one up the inside and use your competitor as a berm/bumper/brake assist or just scare them out of the way allowing the overtake.

[bio]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

It depends on the cars too. The best first corner for an F1 isn't the same as the best for a touring car.

Great point!

bio

[dyewat808]

Originally Posted by Purist

Now I'm thinking of that quote from the BTCC race at Oschersleben. The Scottish announcers said, "Whoever designed that corner should be taken into a dark room and beaten."

Actually I have to disagree about Monza. Yes, you now can go straight on, but the old chicane did not accordion the field as much. It was still easily enough of a deceleration zone to allow overtaking.

I would say that you want to start the lap with a moderate to high-speed corner. The old Castrol Esse, with a few exceptions (like 1999), seemed to get things started off okay at the Nurburgring. I would say that, with an esse bend as an opener, you want the first corner to be the tighter one. If the second one is tighter than the first, you tend to get those situations like Barcelona. Brno and Dijon have quick first corners, and seem to have few, first lap melees.

Now, before you guys bring up Paddock Hill Bend at Brands Hatch, you do have to remember that it is unusual with its cambers and elevation change, plus it's not the widest track in the world. Still, I would say it lends itself to, if anything, smaller accidents that are swept to the outside of the corner pretty quickly.

Hairpin-like first turns seem to create a real mess no matter how open they are. It doesn't matter if it's La Source, San Jose, or Cleveland; they produce a real bottleneck with a bunched field.

I think a decreasing-radius corner could reduce the chances of a pile-up, if it's long enough that you have a move gradual deceleration from the end of the strart/finish straight. I wish I could find some video of the bunched F1 or sportscar fields heading into Espiral at Mexico City.

That's a good point, hairpin turns do tend to cause a mess.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Was there usually first lap incidents at Zandvoort?

I'm just thinking types of hairpin...

Selby

[dyewat808]

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

Was there usually first lap incidents at Zandvoort?

I'm just thinking types of hairpin...

Selby

Another good point!

I have no idea without doing a bit of research first.

[ECW Dan Selby]

I get the feeling that longer, banked hairpins would be less dangerous than a standard flat, tight hairpin.

Selby

[bio]

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

I get the feeling that longer, banked hairpins would be less dangerous than a standard flat, tight hairpin.

Selby

Well, not sure about that... Drivers would probably negotiate a banked hairpin at a greater speed and would be willing to take more risk knowing the hairpin is "safer" - both good ingredients for really big crashes...

But now, that you mentioned it: I wonder why there arent any banked corners in the purpose-built F2-tracks? I mean, except Indianapolis, of course... I thought some obscure FIA-ruling might prohibit it, but then Indianapolis wouldn't be in the calendar, right?

bio

[ECW Dan Selby]

True - Or was it an exception in the style of Monaco, just because it's Indianapolis?

Selby

[bio]

Could be the case...

bio

[LuiggiSpeed]

Thanks for the responses!

I would believe anything that resembles an overtaking spot will be a messy first corner, as all the hungry wolves would be looking for a position bargain, thus making very possible a pileup.

I would say it would be safer to indeed have a fast corner (Like Indy) to make the racers concentrate on their line, then followed by some esses, just to spread out the field a little bit before any passing opportunity is available, I'd say any hard braking zone on T1 is temptation for disaster (just watch Moto2 race at Sachsering this weekend) , the hard braking or tight chicanes do compress the field too much too soon, thus rising the possibilities of a disastrous mistake. The important thing is that the starting line can't be too far so that max speeds are not attainable, I'd say anything under 500m gets the job done.

I have raced at a circuit where T1 is a frightening fast corner and everybody is really concentrated on making the corner and respect is kept, I haven't seen any silly stuff there, and it really lines ups the racers for the rest of the course.

0.02$

[ECW Dan Selby]

I usually quite like to have a quick T1 into a tight T2.

But obviously I have no experience as to how this pans out in real life

Selby

[LuiggiSpeed]

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

I usually quite like to have a quick T1 into a tight T2.

But obviously I have no experience as to how this pans out in real life

Selby

I have raced in both types of tracks, having a passing spot at T1, having a chicane as T1 and that was scary, many racers overshooting the chicane to join later on, that one makes me sweat and gives me night terrors and finally having a fast corner that itself gives me night terrors as a T1 but that one is the one I like the most, because the group don't accordion much,maybe we all respect the speed, but that's just me and I race only motorcycles as an amateur.

[resir014]

I usually loved a Turn 1 with a long-fast sweeper, and ended in a 3rd or 2nd gear opposite hand corner.

[jab]

Originally Posted by Purist

I think a decreasing-radius corner could reduce the chances of a pile-up, if it's long enough that you have a move gradual deceleration from the end of the strart/finish straight. I wish I could find some video of the bunched F1 or sportscar fields heading into Espiral at Mexico City.

Don't think there have been any first lap pile-ups at Shanghai

I'd join the suggestion of a fast flick or sweeper by using Copse or the new Ste Devote as examples - there have rarely been lap 1 crashes at either

Anyway, since when is the possibility of a first lap pile-up a bad thing?

[bio]

"Anyway, since when is the possibility of a first lap pile-up a bad thing? "

I was wondering about the very same question

bio