Fuel from petrol stations for race cars

[Benny1664]

I have just heard through my business connections that petrol stations have now started refusing to sell fuel unless it is going directly into a vehicle. Apparently they have been banned by a new law from selling fuel put into cans due to the riots. I have heard this from 5 different companies today on a Nationwide basis? How are people sposed to fuel their race cars, garden machinery, generators?

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Benny1664

I have just heard through my business connections that petrol stations have now started refusing to sell fuel unless it is going directly into a vehicle. Apparently they have been banned by a new law from selling fuel put into cans due to the riots. I have heard this from 5 different companies today on a Nationwide basis? How are people sposed to fuel their race cars, garden machinery, generators?

It certainly won't be a new 'law' as that has to go through Parliament which usually takes months, and even emergency legislation takes days, and Parliament is in recess right now.
It could be 'police advice' which would not be mandatory; best bet may be to use a local garage where the staff know you.

[midgetman]

Sounds like self-appointed jobsworths to me. Or Chinese whispers. I wouldn't worry about it, just go somewhere else if it ever happens to you.

[Paul D]

I've had this happen twice, both at the same Tesco garage, and the most recent just last week when getting fuel for racing at Anglesey.

Jobsworth woman comes strutting out of the kiosk when she sees four jerry cans, shaking her head and telling me I've got no chance! She speaks to me like a copper would speak to a teenage yob, assuring me that I'm breaking the law as it's illegal to, firstly, buy this much fuel in cans, and secondly to transport it in a vehicle. As I'm fairly sure she's wrong, I ask her to clarify which laws I'm breaking - she can't do this, but does reassure me that it's illegal! I ask again if this is simply Tesco's policy, or actual law - she assures me it's the law.

So I came home in search of the actual laws on this, and eventually found the relevant info on the HSE (Health & Safety Executive) website, which, as it's a government department, I think we can assume is gospel: http://www.hse.gov.uk/fireandexplosi...oleum/faqs.htm

For those that can't be bothered reading all that, I can sum up the relevant parts for us racers as thus: if it's for personal (non-commercial) use, then there is no legal limt on the amount of fuel that can be purchased in a single transaction in containers, as long as the containers are 'suitable' and have a capacity limit of 5 litres (plastic) or 23 litres (metal) per container. But you can fill as many as like within that, and I don't think you can get a much more suitable container than a military spec jerry can with burst-proof cap can you?

On the second point of transportation - once again, if it's for personal use, you can effectively carry as much fuel as you like as long as it's in the correct containers and secured in the vehicle in such a way as to minimise the possibility of spillage.

So, basically, from a legal standpoint, we can purchase and transport as much fuel as we like for personal use as long as we use proper fuel cans. The law is really only interested in how we might store that fuel (within a property), but that has absolutely nothing to do with the petrol retailer.

The bottom line is this: if the jobsworth had told me that it was simply against Tesco policy to allow me to buy that much in cans, then I would have accepted that - but no, she assured me, more than once, that I was actually breaking the law, which I now know I wasn't. I take offence at being accused of that when I'm clearly in the right. Needless to say, the complaint has gone off to Tesco - I await their response! I know Tesco like to think of themselves as a pretty powerful force in the marketplace, but I don't think they can quite make up new laws as it suits them!

Incidentally - went back the next morning (why go back you ask? Well, I wanted the 99 octane fuel, plus I had a couple of '5p off' vouchers to use!) armed with a print-out showing the actual law and ready for a fight. Miserable jobsworth b*tch was nowhere to be seen, and I filled up four jerry cans without anyone else there batting an eyelid! How bonkers is that?

[GORDON STREETER]

I seem to remember that there is some law? regarding transporting fuel on a car ferry, although I have never had a problem.
I can also remember the Isle of Man ferry from Liverpool pumping out fuel from our motorcycle tanks in the 60s !

[Peter Dunne]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

I seem to remember that there is some law? regarding transporting fuel on a car ferry, although I have never had a problem.
I can also remember the Isle of Man ferry from Liverpool pumping out fuel from our motorcycle tanks in the 60s !

Thats right Gordon. I remember when myself and a friend were doing the Super One karting c/ships a few moons ago, that customs on the UK side would nearly always have a look in the van to check for fuel.

They only ever saw the empty ones that we always made sure were at the back door .

[Tim Falce]

I've just bought 40 litres from Tesco with no problem.

[Stuart H]

I havent had problems with geting fuel from Bp. We've got about half a dozen Bp stations in milton keynes. i pop round them with a 5 liter fuel can. No problems at all!

[MGDavid]

thanks for the research Paul.

[graham bahr]

there are restrictions on how much fuel you can buy, i get round it a couple of ways, either tow the car into the garage and put fuel directly into the race car, which strangly has teh fuel cans positioned next to the tank

but i find even easier is use places with pay at the pump out of hours

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Paul D

Jobsworth woman comes strutting out of the kiosk when she sees four jerry cans, shaking her head and telling me I've got no chance! She speaks to me like a copper would speak to a teenage yob, assuring me that I'm breaking the law as it's illegal to, firstly, buy this much fuel in cans, and secondly to transport it in a vehicle. As I'm fairly sure she's wrong, I ask her to clarify which laws I'm breaking - she can't do this, but does reassure me that it's illegal! I ask again if this is simply Tesco's policy, or actual law - she assures me it's the law.

Hi Paul

D'you know, must be the same woman I crossed swords with a year or so ago at a Shell station in Norwich. She has probably had to relocate and change her identity. She switched all the pumps off, donned her hi-vis jacket and locked the door of kiosk behind her to come and ******* me- just as you describe.

I exclusively use a Tesco 'pay at pump' facility now and have never had a problem. I reckon the situation you describe occurs when a member of staff is sent on an H&S course, and gets a big boost to their feeling of self importance....

Reading the HSE blurb, the storage at domestic premises is limited (with distance allowances) to 2 x 10 litres. I think this is the rule that is used to try and stop us filling our jerry cans. After the above incident I talked with the guys running another Shell station near the centre of the Norfolk boating mecca. They just assumed conveniently that anyone buying several cans of go-juice was going to put it straight into their boat's tank.

[greenamex2]

Think I got the same woman before/after the gender re-assignment operation.

Just the once and not had a problem since.

The jerry cans are kept in the race car on the trailer so it looks like I am just filling up the car anyway.

[Paul D]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

I exclusively use a Tesco 'pay at pump' facility now and have never had a problem. I reckon the situation you describe occurs when a member of staff is sent on an H&S course, and gets a big boost to their feeling of self importance....

Mike - you may well be correct! I think this type of jobsworth generally has to relocate on a fairly regular basis, as once they realise none of their colleagues can stand them, they move on and start again!

Going out of hours and simply paying at the pump is an obvious solution... most of the time - but if you want to cash in your '5p off per litre' vouchers, then it has to be done manually by someone in the kiosk.

But I'd like to ask why we have to creep around and be made to feel like criminals in the first place when, as everyone can read on the link I posted, we're not actually doing anything wrong in the first place? Who the hell appointed anyone at Tesco's, or anywhere else for that matter, to suddenly decide what they think the law should say? The fact remains that the law allows us to buy as much as we want as long as we follow the correct procedure re containers. So why all the fuss - you'd think they'd be glad of the business wouldn't you?

[Mike Bell]

Paul, I've just added to my above post after reading the HSE info.

[SFurness]

Good evening,

At the Total garage in Louth, near Cadwell Park, a couple of years ago they had stickers on the petrol pumps stating that it was against the law to carry more than 5 litres in a plastic can or 20 litres in a metal can.

Steve

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by SFurness

Good evening,

At the Total garage in Louth, near Cadwell Park, a couple of years ago they had stickers on the petrol pumps stating that it was against the law to carry more than 5 litres in a plastic can or 20 litres in a metal can.

Steve

Hi Steve, not seen that- but havn't been looking for obvious reasons.

Still think that the bit of the HSE about domestic storage is being interpreted to make it 'against the law' to carry more. Quote- (Domestic Storage) "The limit is a maximum of two suitable metal containers each of a maximum capacity of ten litres or two plastic containers (which have to be of an approved design) each of a maximum capacity of five litres. These limits also apply to any containers kept in a vehicle parked in the garage or on the driveway."

Armed with a copy of the HSE 'rules' I would love to be confronted again while filling cans. Trouble is the individual concerned would never back down as they would be following orders, whether correct or not, so I'll stick with the pay at pump routine.

[Benny1664]

I also came across a funny one when I was 17 and had a car without a working fuel gauge! One day I miscalculated and ran out about a mile from the fuel station and took a can down to fill up and they told me then that to buy fuel in a can you had to be 18, even though you can drive and fill cars up at 17 (or mopeds at 16)! So even though I showed them my car keys and driving licence, they made me go away and come back with an adult!!

[SWCRacing]

Just a bit of clarity here, and by no means am I defending the Tesco employee, but she was probably right in some respects. Most Tesco petrol stations now have a notice stating that their licence to sell petrol restricts the amount they can sell if you are putting it in cans. Helpfully, most places are restricted to 5 litres in a plastic can, or 10 litres in a metal can.
Really helpful if you want to fill a normal sized Jerry can!!

[matlockscot]

60 ltrs at Sainsburys in Matlock today with no problems (although I did have the car carefully positioned between my and the cashiers). I did read the blurb on the pump and it says the same as described above, 5ltrs in plastic or 10 ltrs in metal can max. Cashier must have though I had an endurance tank on the Rav4 with 110 ltrs in total bought!

[vjay48]

Do you think it sensible to carry 50-60 litres of petrol in cans in your car?

[Paul D]

Originally Posted by vjay48

Do you think it sensible to carry 50-60 litres of petrol in cans in your car?

Why not? If it's stored in properly sealed jerry cans, then it's probably at least as safe as fuel in the vehicle's own fuel tank - and I bet you happily drive around with 60 litres in that.

[Paul D]

Originally Posted by SWCRacing

Just a bit of clarity here, and by no means am I defending the Tesco employee, but she was probably right in some respects. Most Tesco petrol stations now have a notice stating that their licence to sell petrol restricts the amount they can sell if you are putting it in cans. Helpfully, most places are restricted to 5 litres in a plastic can, or 10 litres in a metal can.
Really helpful if you want to fill a normal sized Jerry can!!

The licence that filling stations have to sell fuel doesn't actually limit the amount they can legally sell to you. See below taken straight from the HSE:

'Petrol filling stations may have their own internal policy on the types and numbers of containers they are prepared to fill - frequently one or two 5 litre plastic and/or one or two 10 litre metal. This is a decision made by the filling station operator and is not a legal requirement.
Petrol filling stations usually have to abide by a licence condition to allow only 'suitable' containers to be filled. This is usually interpreted as metal containers up to a maximum size of 23 litres or plastic containers up to a maximum size of 5 litres. A licence condition has the same effect as a legal requirement. The licence condition does not limit how many containers one customer may fill.'


As you can see from the last sentence, any limit is a self-imposed one, it's not the licence per se that limits it, so if they are going to stop you buying large amounts, then they should tell you it's against company policy, not against the law. This has been my gripe right from the beginning - if the jobsworth concerned had told me right off that it was simply Tesco policy to not sell fuel this way, I'd have accepted it without further ado. But the point is, that's not what she said, and I was basically told that I was breaking the law, on more than one occasion, which, clearly, I wasn't. That's the part that really annoyed me, the rest is simply an inconvenience.

[vjay48]

There is legisation that limits amount of petroleum you can store in domestic premises and refers to a car close by or in a driveway,10 litres.
Ferries prohibted fuel cans full or empty.
The problem as i see it is the build of explosive vapour in confined space,the fuel tank on my car is not to designed to vent in the interior.
The answer is a box on the trailor or buy fuel at the circuit.

[SFurness]

Hi,

Buying fuel at a circuit is expensive and if it's Total (Cadwell and Mallory) you can only get 97 octane which isn't any good for a lot of engines.

I got asked going onto a ferry a few years back about my jerry cans (two) and they were quite happy as long as they were empty, which they were.


Steve

[MGDavid]

I'm pretty sure Cadwell has changed over to AngloAmerican / Sunoco so proper race fuel now sold...