How far out from behind a wall should one stand at a Street Circuit

[PVDA]

Spotted this on YouTube this morning.

Have a good look to the left during the slo mo replay on the in car footage just after the initial car to car contact athow far one of the marshals is out from the relative safety of the wall and catch fence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=5hNZmxHcCq0

Kind of explains why we work in a "cage" at Albert Park these days but even before that we never got that far out.

Your thoughts.

[morwenna]

I thought exactly the same when I saw that. Admittedly I've never marshalled at a street circuit behind fencing like that, or seen the layout of the post, so I don't know what the visibility was like, but I would have thought that staying behind the wall was a necessity.

[The Flagman]

Bit of a dilemma for the Flaggie. The track is straight at that point with full fencing. Standing behind the fence would mean visibility would be diiddly squat. He needs to see and be seen so little alternative but to stand out.

There are many situations, even on UK circuits, where standing a little out from the barrier makes much more sense of the flagging whilst being ready to take a swift step sideways - like we saw in the video. As a Flaggie there ought not to be a significant risk as you are always on the alert for oncoming traffic. You just have to make sure there are no bottles, bags or ES guys to block your escape!

[Steve Tarrant]

I don't have too much of a problem with the marshal, so long as he was standing behind the line drawn by the front wall of the barrier. Momentum will usually take all cars and debris past the recess where he was standing, although that can still give you a fright!!!!!

What was more concerning for me was during the race itself, the field has just restarted under green, turned the first corner - to be faced by a safety vehicle being driven WRONG DIRECTION and at the field while still trying to leave the circuit!!!!!! Someone both trackside and in race control needs to think hard of the possible consequences!!!!

http://youtu.be/sHuIb2e5Nh0

[deadsquirrel]

I agree with Steve that the Safety Truck going counter race at the start was the most scary thing.

I haven't fully checked the clip, but the post in question has a vehicle access (hence the gap in the wall). The flaggy was (I think) at a cut out just before the gap, together with Comm and TM probably. The guy(s) at the angled wall would have been 'response'. The camera shots always seem to make it look like people are stood outside barriers, when they're not. Its a judgement call to balance being able to see what's coming and possibly being in the way of whats coming.

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by deadsquirrel

The flaggy was (I think) at a cut out just before the gap, together with Comm and TM probably. The guy(s) at the angled wall would have been 'response'. The camera shots always seem to make it look like people are stood outside barriers, when they're not. Its a judgement call to balance being able to see what's coming and possibly being in the way of whats coming.

While I agree the "around the corner" shots looking back towards a corner make it look bad this screen shot from the clip clearly shows he's way too far out from the "protection" of the wall.



The screen shot also gives you an idea of when to fast forward to in the clip.

[deadsquirrel]

Thanks for the pic - I'd like to revise my statement

Standing there is absolutely asking for trouble.

[Peat]

*gasp* I was watching the race and 'thought' i had seen something flashing down the escape road there. Didn't think anything of it, but that reverse angle is shocking to say the least. Was that at the end of the mammoth caution period? Surely they only go green when all safety personel and vehicles are back in position? (obviously not).

EDIT: Ok, that must have been the first lap as Rahal takes the lead around the outside. Which infact makes the indescretion even more unforgivable.

[White flag man]

Absolute madness all round. If you can't see to flag, don't do it. Do not put yourself in danger just to please the organisers.
The same organisers obviously think it is a good idea to go green with a service vehicle coming wrong direction with nowhere else to go, because 15 seconds were far too valuable!

[Lrawlings]

Bet his whites weren't so White after!

[racerkeke]

That looked like a captain (post chief) to me. White Flag Man, I suspect that, far from pleasing the organizers (don't forget this was in the litigious USA), he got a strip ripped off him for standing out there. You've seen why, and I hope he learned his lesson.

This is definitely NOT acceptable practice at street courses in North America.
keke

[RCMADD]

edited.....

[m1fcf]

Originally Posted by RCMADD

well nobody seems to have mentioned... the cars turn right just before the gap where they were standing..

that maybe the case, but in the video clip of the airborne car, at 19 seconds that car is definitely turning left *into* the gap where the marshal is stood. It looks like only a miracle, or the left wheel hitting the ground, that straightens it up into the tyre walls further on.

Whilst it might be *OK* to stand there, I don't think you would find me doing that.

[Woolley]

Regarding standing behind the line of the wall, you need to remember concrete blocks on street circuits are a moveable structure. I know from seeing it that a V8 Ute can move the pit wall at Surfers approximately 3ft backwards, and that wasn't an end piece...

[PVDA]

The marshal posts at Albert Park are set up so that a spreader plate is installed so if the outer block is hit it cant crush the marshals in the gap.

There's also no way we would be allowed to be past the end of the wall even before all the changes came in after one of us was killed at Turn 3 back in 2001.

[wolfhound]

I see the truck drive has been blamed for the safety truck near miss at the start of the Baltimore Indy car race.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/94337

[Hepatic]

yeah because it's his fault that the green was thrown when all service vehicles hadn't been cleared from trackside...

even if he didn't go where he should have, that is no excuse for going green. guess it's easy to blame people lower down the food chain tho...

[bludvl_x19]

Did anyone catch a glimpse of the flaggies in the sand at Parabolica during the GP? Their flags were leaning against the outside of the barrier and they were standing behind those flags. At least that's the image I got from the very fleeting shot of them...

[m1fcf]

Originally Posted by bludvl_x19

Did anyone catch a glimpse of the flaggies in the sand at Parabolica during the GP? Their flags were leaning against the outside of the barrier and they were standing behind those flags. At least that's the image I got from the very fleeting shot of them...

I noticed quite a few marshal points at Monza which looked as though the marshals were exposed, however, I think that it was mostly down to the camera angles looking back along the track showing the access points between the armco.

The shots you get going the other way dont seem to show the same issue of marshals being exposed from cover.

[NewYankee01]

2 points, the obvious reason why they blamed the driver is they can but to the average person watching at home they dont know what green truly means, we do which is why its to blatently clear for us but so so for others. he'll just be perceived as being somewhere he shouldnt have been, dawdling about or something, not being as some experience marshal stuck in a rock and a hard place, acting on a quick decision that may not have been his own.

the other thing is the f1 marshals at monza, there were quite a few times that i noticed especially on the approach to ascari i could see them throwing derogatory remarks and coming past the perceived line of armco while getting carried away to anything except a former or current ferrari driver.

now i have to say yes italian marshals are passionate but so is us brits, whether it was a laugh or not or if they really were taking it too seriously, this is not really the image they should be portraying. one thing we're not is impartial, we shouldnt be, we are fans of the sport. they should not making it public though for hundreds of millions to see. sure if youre that way inclined call them all the names under the sun where the only people who can hear you is the people its only intended for, on post but stuff like this, if noticed will further reinforce the idea we're not proper officials of the event, just the untrained, useless lackies some people still take us for...

[Hubble]

Originally Posted by NewYankee01

2 points, the obvious reason why they blamed the driver is they can but to the average person watching at home they dont know what green truly means, we do which is why its to blatently clear for us but so so for others. he'll just be perceived as being somewhere he shouldnt have been, dawdling about or something, not being as some experience marshal stuck in a rock and a hard place, acting on a quick decision that may not have been his own

The article says he tried to make it back to turn 1 rather than go further round the track...if he'd followed procedure he wouldn't have been there....

A simple error, but a dangerous one none the less, and hence his 2 race suspension....

[Greem]

I'm not normally given to thinking about Biblical hyperbole, but it's certainly relevant: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

Shout up if you've never made a mistake or showed your support for a specific driver/team/car/mate while they've been racing.

Quiet in here, isn't it?

Being serious for a moment: one of the things in the MSA grading scheme for marshals is "training with learning review" - in more pompous terms, a bit of reflection never goes amiss. I've had a couple of frighteners in my past which feature very highly in how I now conduct myself when trackside.

Now, if you did shout up (especially about making a mistake) - go back and reflect a moment. Blimey, now it's *really* quiet

With regard to the passionate support shown by marshals - as long as it didn't detract from what they were supposed to be doing, I don't see any real problem with it.

[theracegypsy]

Ok, to me most of the comments made here about the safety truck have been made without people knowing any of the details. yes I appreciate the video shows a scene which no one wanted, but if you are not aware of the communications going on behind the scenes and were the error actually occurred please don't speculate with comments which I know are not the true position. If you don't have personal knowledge don't guess! With regard to the gentleman standing out in the gap, no he was not the flagger and yes he should not have been there. All items have been dealt with by the appropriate authorities.

[Hubble]

Originally Posted by theracegypsy

Ok, to me most of the comments made here about the safety truck have been made without people knowing any of the details. yes I appreciate the video shows a scene which no one wanted, but if you are not aware of the communications going on behind the scenes and were the error actually occurred please don't speculate with comments which I know are not the true position. If you don't have personal knowledge don't guess! With regard to the gentleman standing out in the gap, no he was not the flagger and yes he should not have been there. All items have been dealt with by the appropriate authorities.

Spill the beans then...

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by theracegypsy

Ok, to me most of the comments made here about the safety truck have been made without people knowing any of the details. yes I appreciate the video shows a scene which no one wanted, but if you are not aware of the communications going on behind the scenes and were the error actually occurred please don't speculate with comments which I know are not the true position. If you don't have personal knowledge don't guess! With regard to the gentleman standing out in the gap, no he was not the flagger and yes he should not have been there. All items have been dealt with by the appropriate authorities.

my point entirely...