In 10 years time......

AndyF · 28 Jan 2002, 08:38 (Ref:205682)

National and Club racing has been in the spotlight recently, and its future looks far from secure! What do you think will happen in the future? In ten years time, how will the lower categories look, or will they even exist?

Your views.....

Red Dog · 28 Jan 2002, 17:32 (Ref:205842)

What do you mean by 'lower classes'?

I thought this was supposed to be a classless society!

Do you mean slower? Or cheaper? Or just those people who don't have sponsors or a paid crew to run them?

Stock hatch seems to be pretty full at the moment. Just as well as it gets a few nutters off the public roads for a day.

Tony_Simpson · 28 Jan 2002, 17:50 (Ref:205849)

Like life, some will survive, some will not.

I think Octagon (or MSA??) is planning to sort things out a bit in the next few years/next year. I think the orgainising clubs are already thinking of the future with series like the Super coupe series and the new BRSCC/BARC single seater championship. Both these series have been created to allow a few of simlar paced cars race against a few others, thus creating large grids. Series like the Formula Saloons and Monoposto series have done this on there own (with help of course) and are now/continue to have grids over 20+ cars a time.

I think more series like this will spring up over the next few years, and some could be placed in them (like Formula Honda in the single seaters this year) so that bigger grids can be made up. This is a good thing for spectators. It will also give owners of cars somewhere to sell cars that they do not want to race any more. All in all a good thing all round.

**Stephen Green** · 29 Jan 2002, 10:26 (Ref:206176)

Hmmm, I think there will be less meetings to choose from but those that survive will have a better program of events and races with full grids. I believe there will be major improvements in off track activities and spectator facilities in order to attract more people to the circuits. There will be specific areas for families to view with facilities for mothers and young children such as toddlers play areas.

The racing day will be shorter, starting at 10.00am and finishing by 17.00pm with less gaps between sessions. During breaks in racing there will be entertainment on and off track to keep the spectators amused and interested.

Well, I can dream can't I?

**Peter Mallett** · 29 Jan 2002, 10:32 (Ref:206179)

Quote:

Originally posted by Red Dog
..................................
Stock hatch seems to be pretty full at the moment. Just as well as it gets a few nutters off the public roads for a day.

Actually this is interesting. The proliferation of Historic Sports and Touring Car Series has impacted the CSCC. Apart from individual financial reasons I can't see any reason for these championships. All the cars qualify for CSCC grids.

However we now have the situation where the largest pool of pre 60, pre 66, pre 74 and 83 cars may well be bypassed by the BTCC package in favour of somebody who will just draw on CSCC drivers to fill a grid under another championship's name.

Red Dog · 30 Jan 2002, 01:23 (Ref:206417)

It has become fashionable for clubs to invite higher profile series to give added interest to a weekends racing. This can be very interesting for the spectators and I expect that it does no harm to the club funds as they do tend to choose series with full grids like formula junior and XK's etc. It definitely raises spectator attendance.

From a drivers point of view in one of the more mundane classes, I would not want to see this too often. They always give the garages and the best bits of the paddock to the guests (very generous of them) and shove the rest of us in a field somewhere. It makes one feel very second class (there's that word again)and it causes practical difficulties with ground clearance and working on the cars.

Those of us who run without sponsorship on a small budget will continue to race if we have stability in our chosen championship and if it does not cost us too much to enter. The big circuit owners are only interested in money and prices are being driven up. It is getting harder to get race time at some circuits and the testing costs are rising (have risen) very fast. This cost increase will cause instability and reduction in entries. If high profile events also draw entries away from established series it will cause an early demise.

In 2000 the eight clubs at Silverstone cost £80 per race entry and was free to spectators. It was traditionally a very low cost meeting. In 2001 it was £130 and I think spectators had to fork out £10 as well. Did they charge the marshalls as well? Is it coincidence that the management of the circuit changed for 2001?

Will some circuits soon become unaffordable for the average club meeting?

**Peter Mallett** · 30 Jan 2002, 22:15 (Ref:206976)

Quote:

Originally posted by Red Dog
From a drivers point of view in one of the more mundane classes, I would not want to see this too often. They always give the garages and the best bits of the paddock to the guests (very generous of them) and shove the rest of us in a field somewhere. It makes one feel very second class (there's that word again)and it causes practical difficulties with ground clearance and working on the cars.

Not sure what you mean by "mundane". It happens to all of us in all championships. Unless your entry fee includes the garage or you pay for one, you end up in the field.

Quote:

Originally posted by Red Dog
Those of us who run without sponsorship on a small budget will continue to race if we have stability in our chosen championship and if it does not cost us too much to enter. The big circuit owners are only interested in money and prices are being driven up. It is getting harder to get race time at some circuits and the testing costs are rising (have risen) very fast. This cost increase will cause instability and reduction in entries. If high profile events also draw entries away from established series it will cause an early demise.

It's many years since I was sponsored but like you I race when I can. Mostly its geography rather than finance which is the problem. As to time. If you pop into the marshal's forum you'll see that they want to reduce the amount of time for each race day. To me that's an anathema. However if they have their way we'll end up with four laps of practice, five laps per race and only three races per event, but at least we'll all get home early. Mind you, the entry fees will double. But then again, if there's no racers there's no need for marshals is there?

Quote:

Originally posted by Red Dog
In 2000 the eight clubs at Silverstone cost £80 per race entry and was free to spectators. It was traditionally a very low cost meeting. In 2001 it was £130 and I think spectators had to fork out £10 as well. Did they charge the marshalls as well? Is it coincidence that the management of the circuit changed for 2001?

Will some circuits soon become unaffordable for the average club meeting?

The SUNBAC meeting was traditionally held at Silverstone in March. It was free for spectators and the entry fee was low. The CSCC was always present. However, because we fill our grids we now have to be part of the Classic Package. I like it and so do my fellow racers, but a higher profile (even one that's imposed) brings its own disadvantages. Now we don't get a cheap race entry for one race in the year.

BTW. What do you race?

Marshal · 30 Jan 2002, 22:53 (Ref:207003)

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Mallett

If you pop into the marshal's forum you'll see that they want to reduce the amount of time for each race day. To me that's an anathema. However if they have their way we'll end up with four laps of practice, five laps per race and only three races per event, but at least we'll all get home early. Mind you, the entry fees will double. But then again, if there's no racers there's no need for marshals is there?

Err, no.

Start at 9, finish at 6, have an hour for lunch, and no messing about. We start getting upset at when the last race is scheduled for a 7pm start, as has been the case a number of times in the last few years at Donnington. A well run club meeting (AMOC seem to do a good job) is a joy.

As for the future, I'd hope for less classes (or existing classes being combined a la supercoupes) with bigger fields getting more track time. Also, take a look at what castle combe does, as they seem to be able to draw 7,500 people to a club meeting if the weather's nice, how do they do it?

Red Dog · 31 Jan 2002, 00:34 (Ref:207047)

Peter Mallet

Hi, I now race a 750 Formula which I spent some time converting from a Formula 1300. I previously did several races in Classic Clubmans and Sports 2000 with the 1300. I found it rather a humbling, not to say humiliating experience being passed by A-Sports going just sub-sonic on the Revett Straight!

'Mundane' I mean the entry level club racers like me. Some of the cars are far from mundane but I think that's how they are viewed by a lot of those in higher profile classes.

'Fields' Most of the circuits have managed to put graded or even tarmac covered areas for their paddocks which is nice but when we get parked in a field our cars really struggle to get around with 40mm ground clearance. I know it is inevitable occasionally but it is a bit annoying to be sidelined for the invited formulae, especially as one rarely gets much time to do any spectating.

Actually, I have been lucky enough to use garages at Silverstone without extra fees from time to time. (pre sell-out)

**Stephen Green** · 31 Jan 2002, 08:57 (Ref:207217)

Peter, I have to agree with Marshal. We certainly do not want the days shortened at the expense of racing, but neither do we enjoy the time wasting that happens at some high profile meetings like the GP and TOCA. I think we are all in favour of a full days racing no matter what formula you drive in.

I think the point I may have made at some earlier date was, that if you are doing a two or thre day meeting as a marshal, if the meeting finishes at 6.30/7.00pm then we don't get home until after 8.00pm and that in itself causes a few problems with family life.

To give you an example, the applications to marshal at this years British GP are 40% down on last year. Last year was 10% down on the year before. Doesn't that tell the organisers something? At TOCA meetings we often struggle to man the posts properly on the Saturday because marshals find it hard to give up a whole weekend, especially those with children or a wife who doesn't share their love of motor racing.

I happen to believe that the 'mundane' formula's give the best value for money to the spectator and also some of the best racing to be seen. Keep up the great racing guys and gals, we marshals love to watch it as much as you like to do it!

Tony_Simpson · 31 Jan 2002, 09:49 (Ref:207221)

I have done a lot of spectating at Mallory Park over the years and they have something that is imposed. They have to finish racing by 6pm. This means that you can garrenty when you can get home. Usually a 8-10 race program can be compleated in 4-4.5 hours. The practice still starts early at around 8 am, with a lunch hour at 12.30 and racing anywhere between 1.30-2pm. The only trouble with Mallory is that the competators can not really get out of the circuit early.

Also I have some great memories of a Eurcar race going on with 5 minutes of the meeting going and a rescue truck picking a car up, literally racing around, just to get the race finished.

Also something the eurocar package brought out was a start at midday, a couple of races, then lunch, then the rest of the program. This worked ok, but most of that package does not need qualifying, so could not be done for most of the series as they require qualifying.

As for the normal club race meeting that happens in a day is that qualfiying could start around 9am, with a 15 min session each, and racing start around 1pm. Longer races (2-5 laps longer, depending on circuit) could then be run and still finish before 6 pm. This is for around a 10 race program, which I think should be the standard for club race meetings

What about the BRSCC racing ahead scheme that was/is ment to speed up racing?

What ever idea comes out, it is a fine line between the competitors finance that will ensure good grids and good quality and varied racing grids around the Uk.

AndyF · 31 Jan 2002, 09:54 (Ref:207224)

It would seem that racing is getting more expensive, and is not such good value. I am sure most competitors would be willing to accept the current fees if they got longer races! (For example, last season the T-Car drivers qualified twice and raced once on the Saturday, but had to stay overnight for a ten-lap, ten minute race on the Brands Indy Circuit!).
I think the number of rounds in a season should be reduced (as seems to be happening this season), but increase the races to 20 laps. This would mean more laps per event and save people driving 500 miles for 8 laps of practice and a ten lap race!

AndyF · 31 Jan 2002, 09:56 (Ref:207225)

Tony, just spotted that, some very interesting points there...

**Stephen Green** · 31 Jan 2002, 12:55 (Ref:207320)

What I would like to know is how much influence the drivers have within the organising clubs? There have been some very valid points made, especially the one regarding T Cars at Brands Hatch last year. Could the series co-ordinator not have a greater influence on the BRSCC, BRDC, BARC etc?

**Peter Mallett** · 31 Jan 2002, 13:11 (Ref:207340)

Quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Green
What I would like to know is how much influence the drivers have within the organising clubs? There have been some very valid points made, especially the one regarding T Cars at Brands Hatch last year. Could the series co-ordinator not have a greater influence on the BRSCC, BRDC, BARC etc?

I'm not sure how much a driver can do? If you refuse to pay the fees, then you don't get to race and your chammpionship closes down. The circuits rather than the clubs dictate things. The clubs don't usually get any gate money so it's down to the racers to finance the meeting. That said, whilst it doesn't matter when you race in a club formula, unless like the CSCC, the package gets built around the championships. You then find yourself in an even weaker position because now, in order to race, you've got to support more events therefore spending more money.

It's not an easy call.

The Racing Ahead initiative took its lead from motorcycle racing. when a bike crashes, you can clear it up quickly, the BRSCC realised that when a car crashes the most time is taken up with barrier repairs, towing dead cars back to the paddock and the like. So it faded away.

In the event of a disruption the races have to be run because the clubs can't afford to return entry fees for missed races. Ergo, we get delayed finishes to race days.

**Stephen Green** · 31 Jan 2002, 13:56 (Ref:207388)

Peter, I was thinking more along the lines of drivers having influence over things like the practise times, number of races and whether the meeting is a one or two day affair.

Personally I thought that racing ahead was a brilliant idea and mourn it's demise. One of the problems was the lack of snatch vehicles at circuits where you can get a crased or broken car off the circuit really quickly and get on with the session.

Speaking for a moment as a marshal, it also made for more excitement in so much as we too were racing against the clock to get the incident cleared. I don't believe safety was compromised either and would love to see racing ahead return!

AndyF · 31 Jan 2002, 14:01 (Ref:207389)

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Mallett

the BRSCC realised that when a car crashes the most time is taken up with barrier repairs, towing dead cars back to the paddock and the like. So it faded away.

To me, Castle Combe have always been very quick at tidying up after a race (and at Combe, there normally is a lot of mess), usually only taking about five minutes. In contrast, Thuruxton are pretty slow.

**Peter Mallett** · 31 Jan 2002, 14:40 (Ref:207417)

Quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Green
Peter, I was thinking more along the lines of drivers having influence over things like the practise times, number of races and whether the meeting is a one or two day affair.

Well if you are paying £150 to £250.00 per race then as a driver you want to get as much track time as possible. The idea of reducing practice time is valid but it doesn't follow that race distances will increase. Also reducing practice periods reduces the oportunity for drivers to familiarise themselves with their cars and the track. Don't forget we are talking about amateurs here and we need all the practice we can get.

Dave Brand · 31 Jan 2002, 16:06 (Ref:207458)

Quote:

Originally posted by Tony_Simpson
I have done a lot of spectating at Mallory Park over the years and they have something that is imposed. They have to finish racing by 6pm

Several circuits, among them Oulton & Anglesey, have similar curfews. They are a good thing in one respect, that we know there won't be a late finish. The downside of curfews is that if there are a lot of indidents in the morning's practice/qualifying sessions the lunch break tends to be shortened to get the programme back on schedule.

Yeah, I know....another marshal whinging about his lunch break

Look at the practicalities of the situation. We've been on post since about 8:30AM, with no access to hot food or, more importantly, toilets. It takes five minutes or so to walk to the car & drive back to the paddock; we've got to be back on post ten minutes or so before racing starts. Doesn't leave much time to do anything in a half-hour break, does it?

**Peter Mallett** · 31 Jan 2002, 22:12 (Ref:207839)

Dave B.

You are of course quite right. Not much time at all. I then ask the question "why do it"?

The answer is because you, like me, are hooked and we put up with all sorts of anguish, pain and inconvenience just to be part of the sport.

Please don't take the old attitude about no marshals no racing, because whilst true, it is also true that no drivers means no racing ergo no marshals.

We all suffer to an extent (drivers financially) and if we as clubs can make it better for marshals we will. The problem seems to be that if you won't join a friendly car club (like the CSCC because maybe that would preclude marshals from being invited to the GP), then we can't help you.

Sorry if that over simplifies it but it may be a good start to a debate.

I'm away for a while. I look forward to returning to this in March. BTW. I sent my entries for Thruxton 24th March off today. All I need now is a medical, my licence, three days testing and a completed car.

You think you have problems.!!!!

Dave Brand · 1 Feb 2002, 17:19 (Ref:208218)

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
Dave B.

You are of course quite right. Not much time at all. I then ask the question "why do it"?

Oops, looks like the wrong message came across there! I wasn't complaining, just pointing out a drawback (one of several) to curfews from one particular point of view. I put the

there in an attempt to indicate that it was not intended to be taken as a whinge!

Teletubby · 6 Feb 2002, 12:25 (Ref:211053)

Peter,

I think that part of the problem is that a driver might compete in 14 rounds and maybe some testing, say 20 days in all; if all the Marshals only attended for 20 days each year, motorsport would grind to a halt. The issue is that week in week out during the season with no lunch break and late finishes is causing Marshals to cut back or drop out altogether and with the greatest respect nobody really seems to actually be doing anything. The powers that be spend a lot of time talking but not much time doing!

Add to this a sizeable number of drivers who are less than courteous (to be fair these are normall in the higher echelons) and it all adds up to a volunteer workforce on whom motorsport is relying dwindling in size and becoming more unhappy as each season progresses!

So whilst the no drivers, no racing, no marshals, no racing chicken and egg game may be true either way roung it's not exactly helpful for either side.

At the end of the day a race programme of 6 races each with 10 drivers, at say Thruxton, would (probably) not result in the greatest racing but would go ahead, if only 80 Marshals turned up it wouldn't happen at all!

The MSA need to sort all of it out pronto or racing in the UK will suffer big time due to the disenchantment of both drivers and Marshals.

Martin

**Stephen Green** · 6 Feb 2002, 13:14 (Ref:211078)

Good points Martin and I'm sure Peter appreciates the problem as much as we do!

It seems to me that there is virtually nothing done to attract new marshals to motorsport. We (clubs) rely solely on people seeing guys and girls in orange and thinking to themselves 'wow, I fancy doing that'.

I know there is a stand at the Autosport Show and I offered my help for three days to help with recruitment, but was told the local boys already had it covered. When have you ever seen a stand at the British Grand Prix, or at a TOCA meeting in an effort to attract new members? The organising clubs are ignoring this as much as the next man/woman. They forget that a large number of marshals also join their clubs! I mean, you don't have to be Einstein to see that they actually win both ways.

I manned a stand at the F Ford Festival last year but with the torrential rain over the weekend, it was a complete waste of time.

Many will hate me for saying this, but I am also a believer in marshals giving a few demonstrations during the lunch break (when we get them) purely on a volunteer basis of course. But what could be a better way of advertising what we do than to show the spectators?

Right, I'm going to hide in my bunker now as there is bound to be a barrage of moans and groans!!!

Teletubby · 6 Feb 2002, 13:59 (Ref:211091)

Stephen,

I agree entirely with your ideas and will suggest it to BARC to see what their opinion is. As far as demo's are concerned what sort of thing did you have in mind?

**Stephen Green** · 6 Feb 2002, 14:31 (Ref:211106)

To be really honest I didn't have anything specific in mind, but maybe something like driver extraction, a quick appearance by the rescue unit, maybe even a nice fire if that could be arranged. For the most part the spectators only ever see us weilding brooms or falling over our feet as we run through gravel traps. Do you have any ideas yourself Martin?

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