Honda, Toyota, Jaguar - Are they wasting their Time?

[Wrex]

If I were the CEO of Renault, Toyota, Honda or Ford, I would seriously look at the history below before throwing millions (or even billions) into a Formula One Team. They have all stated on different occasions that they did not enter Formula One to make up the numbers. They entered to ultimately win the drivers/constructors championship.

Constructors Championship

2001 Ferrari
2000 Ferrari
1999 Ferrari
1998 McLaren Mercedes
1997 Williams Renault
1996 Williams Renault
1995 Benetton Renault
1994 Williams Renault
1993 Williams Renault
1992 Williams Renault
1991 McLaren Honda
1990 McLaren Honda
1989 McLaren Honda
1988 McLaren Honda
1987 Williams Honda
1986 Williams Honda
1985 McLaren TAG
1984 McLaren TAG
1983 Ferrari
1982 Ferrari
1981 Williams Cosworth
1980 Williams Cosworth
1979 Ferrari
1978 Lotus Cosworth
1977 Ferrari
1976 Ferrari
1975 Ferrari
1974 McLaren Cosworth

With Ferrari, Williams and McLaren involved, its not looking good for anyone else. 1995 and 1978 are the only non-Willy/Ferrari/Mac victories since 1973!!!

Do Mercedes-Benz and BMW have the right idea. If you cant beat them, join them.

Is it really possible for these other teams to get on top?

[Valve Bounce]

I suppose it depends what Toyota wants to achieve. At this point in time, if they can get a couple of podiums this year, the effect it would have on their sales worldwide would be fantastic. Wasting their time - I think not.

[f1manoz]

I think Toyota and Renault certainly have what it takes.

Toyota has quite a reputation in all categories of international motor-sport, and have certainly been impressive in their debut season. They have a good leader in Ove, a brilliant genius in Brunner and a technical and mechanical staff, who although inexperienced in the world of F1, will certainly learn fast. Toyota are expecting results in the near future, and will pull the plug if they do not arrive.

Renault have come close before in 1983, but bad luck lost them that chance. Their manufacturing history in the 90s is second to none, but whether they can construct the entire car again, like the 80s, and come out winners remains to be seen.

Honda, even as a supplier, appears to be lagging while the effort from Ford is just abysmal.

[Glen]

Honda have got lost. Toyota is far too early to call, and Renault will definately make money. All of it, interestingly, I think relies on mangement and leadership. If one of these mid-field players (well, Toyota are hardly mid-field yet) picks up one of the big hitters like Newey everything could change.

[Maxmil]

F1 has become a three division sport just like US football.

In the First Division are the perennial powers: Ferrari, Williams and Mc Laren. Betting against these teams as a group is a prescripton for a quick trip to the poorhouse. They tend to win in streaks, as the narrow margins between them are shifted by a gifted quarterback, a superior coaching staff, or some piece of new equipment.

Second Division holds the potential contenders, who, in any given season will score a very few upsets, and, very, very rarely, may crash through for a championship, usually when all of the First Division teams are rebuilding. Jordon, Renault, and Sauber inhabit this group to which may be added Toyota as the season progresses.

Finally, there is the Third Division who are the perennial also rans. The members are Arrows, BAR, Jaguar and Minardi. There is really no hope for these teams, but they are subsidiszd by the league to fill up the ranks and provide a full schedule for their betters.

One team - Prost - is currently serving a suspension for financial improprieties. Their ball has been taken away, and, if they don't behave, will be awarded to a newcomer.

[neilap]

Honda, and Toyota claim they expect to be in contention for a title by 2004. Renault expects it a little earlier. So what they are claiming is that these are the growing pains. I feel that Honda out of the bunch might be in the worst position. There is really no way that they should beat the might of Toyota. They have the experience but seem to have lost the plot a bit. The new "developing" engine had better be putting down some serious numbers by seasons end for anyone to take them seriously. Toyota said they were just hoping to qualify; gimmie a break! If they have the motor that it is being claimed then they are full of sh**. They will, I fear, be fighting the top three sooner than Honda. Right now I feel that the team in the worst shape though is Sauber. They have a good chassis and well, nothing needs to be said about the engine. However they will never win championships as long as they are Ferrari's step children. I am also a bit disappointed in Renault. I would have thought that after a "developmental year" last year, that thier motor would have been a bit better. Hopefully Honda does not hit a wall like this in their development.

[Neil C]

I remember in the late 80's early 90's when people were saying that Ferrari had lost its way and should get out of F1 before it ruined their image. I think anyone with the desire and funding to compete should stay with it as long as they give it their best. That includes Minardi, Arrows, Jag and BAR...you just never know.

I agree with most of whats being said here regarding the past and present. The future however, is another matter. If the future was so easy to predict, there wouldn't be much point in having one.

[Super Tourer]

Jaguar most certainly are wasting their time and more importantly Ford's money at a time when the motor giant is having to make some major changes in its business to stem billion dollar losses.

Undoubtedly, Ford have already arranged the funeral for this team, its just a question of when and how they execute it.

You can put some of their last season difficulties down to the new regime. Unfortunately Niki Lauda made the bold claim that if they failed this year it would be all their own fault, and they already have. The 2002 season will be about damage limitation and how Ford can extricate themselves from the hideous messs they find themselves in -and save face.

IMO. The R3 will be thrown away after Sepang, never to be seen again - the car is so fundamentally bad that Jag don't have the time, expertise or resources to change it. In anycase who's going to change it? Gunter (the new man) comes from a WRC background and is unlikely to have the neccesary experience to effect any changes. The existing design team are patently hopeless - how will they change it? - if they knew what they were doing they wouldn't have produced it in the first place.

The R2 will have some mod's made to it and be used as an R2B for the remainder of the season.

The only real fix for Jag is a 'cut to the quick' followed by a cruise around the paddock with an open cheque book and a lawyer - trying to see where they can find new engineering talent. Of course, they've already tried this, which in true Jaguar style - blew up in their face.

A new subtle approach won't work as frankly, the paymasters no longer have the desire or wish to put anymore money into this project (IMO). Niki Lauda's bold hope to have the team self-funding (therefore not so reliant on Ford) are far fetched and unlikely to become a reality. Jaguar F1 simply don't have any more cards to play - it's goodnight Vienna!!!

Toyota have done a good solid job and must represent one of the most impressive new team debut's in a long time. With their resources they will ultimately succeed and IMO, will prove to be the top 3's major challenger over the coming seasons.


Honda are wasting their time until they opt for a one team focused approach. Hedging their bets on two teams is simply splitting their resources. Their overall spend on F1 is massive and their return very poor. I'm amazed they have stuck with this policy for so long, as it's patently delivering nothing.

IMO they want to wait until David Richard's has carried out his major re-shuffle at BAR and effectively brought his Prodrive organisation in to designing and developing the car. Prodrive have a virtually unblemished record at whatever they compete in and have massive resources to get the job done.

Then Honda need to make the phone call to Eddie Jordan and tell him its all over - he can have a pay-off and year old Honda engine's at a knock down price - or if he wishes, pursue another engine deal elsewhere. Honda desperately need to focus their effort.

Sorry its long , but that's my analysis

[Mr V]

honda imo are with the wrong (2) teams if they want to achieve success in f1, but, with the engine suppliers that williams and mclaren have already got, i don't see anyone else getting a look in at those two teams! and obviously ferrari are not looking for any engine partners!
if jag don't do something to seriously improve this season then they may aswell forget it, or change their name from jaguar to something else less prestigious (who else do ford own??.......volvo/mazda??)

toyota, to me look, of the three teams mentioned at the start of this topic, most likely to enjoy some sort of success. australia may have been abit fortunate for them, but you still have to be on the track at the end to stand a chance of scoring, they proved to be a reliable package, and if they carry on improving and maybe attract a top driver then who knows?

btw, am i the only suprised at the change around at renault/benetton? i know that they were improving towards the end of last season but, they certainly look like they are going in the right direction! (and hopefully jensons qualifying performance at maylasia this morning will go some way to silencing his doubters, not only sticking the car 8th on the grid but also outqualifying the (so called) best qualifier out there! )

[BD]

Honda isnt in direct competition with Toyota. When Jordan doesnt finish a race because of "gearbox" problems, its not Honda's fault. BAR and Jordan need to get their act together. They certainly have the resources. Right now they are making Honda look bad.
Renault are in the best position to challenge the top 3. But they certainly arent there yet.
The F2002 will make things uninteresting at the very top. But a rapidly improving Renault will make up for it.
I still cant believe how well Toyota are doing. I hope they can keep it up.
Mr.V, how did Button outqualify the best qualifier out there? The best qualifier got pole

[Mania]

Toyota are certainly not wasting their time. They will win the World Championship one day because they not only have right tools at their disposal but also the right attitude.

Honda are a different story. They are continuing to dig themselves into a hole by continuing their accosiation with BAR and Jordan - 2 no hope teams who dont have a chance in hell to win the title.

Honda's only option is to buy one of the teams out - and build step by step but it seems they are not interested in doing that - so I dont see a bright immediate future for Honda.

Jaguar will stick with F1 - despite the failures. As long as F1 has the reach that it does - no one will want to pull out with their tail b/w their legs. I dont know why people keep pointing fingers at Jag - Stewart wasnt much of a grand prix team either. They got a lucky win and points here and there and as much as I like Jackie - he was smart enough to quit after he realized what a long road it was to success as a constructor in F1. Just because Jaguar bought Stewart - people like to refer to Jag as an "old" team rather than what they are - ie an inexperienced and poorly equipped outfit. Jaguar like Toyota has the tools in the pipeline to do the job eventually - it may take them longer but I wouldnt write them off.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by BD
Mr.V, how did Button outqualify the best qualifier out there? The best qualifier got pole

according to these so-called "experts" on tv (evryones an expert aren't they?) trulli is the best qualifiergiven the equipment he has! i, personally think it's b***ox, so i was being facisious!

[MichaelC]

They aren't wasting their time no. All three teams have virtually unlimited budgets in order to get success, and if they spend it sensibly, it will come. Unfortunately, only Toyota seem to be heading in the right direction. Honda aren't going backwards, but they aren't going forwards either.
And as for Ford, they might as will give me their money to spend on alcohol, because they'd still not have their money, but it would all be a lot quicker, and they wouldn't have to get everyone's hopes up first before failing dismally