The Chop

[f1manoz]

TGF and his move, The 'Chop', has become a standard feature of grand prix starts in the past few years. The most recent, and perhaps graphic example, was the start in Malaysia on Sunday.

What is everyones opinion on the move? Is it legal? Is it dangerous? Should the FIA/FOCA/GPDA make it illegal?

Personally, I hope one day he'll be picking himself out of a wrecked Ferrari after doing it to Juan Pablo one too many times.

[Inigo Montoya]

My thoughts are in the scumaker thread. The FIA rules are vague about on-track conduct. If they actually followed them word-for-word, we would have even more boring races...

[Spudgun]

The move was legal, but I still don't agree with it.. It could have easily ended in tears, resulting in 10 cars being taken out.. again..

[J.McClane]

I aint a Shu fan, but was "the chop" illegal?????
Well no, the race leader(as well as everyone else)has the right to defend thier possition, i think Shu had every right to do what he did.
It was just a damn shame we were robbed of a fantastic race due to a crappy official decsion on the Monty/Shu incident.

[BBKing]

Originally posted by Inigo Montoya
My thoughts are in the scumaker thread. The FIA rules are vague about on-track conduct. If they actually followed them word-for-word, we would have even more boring races...

The rules are quite clear: Let the evil empire get away with anything

[Dr. Austin]

We've hammered the legal implications for two weeks now after Barrichello's stupidity in Melborne. No one has addressed the sporting aspect of all of this. Does no one care about sport anymore? Is this just a technical excercise with the world's highest paid trained monkeys?

[race aficionado]

Originally posted by Dr. Austin
We've hammered the legal implications for two weeks now after Barrichello's stupidity in Melborne. No one has addressed the sporting aspect of all of this. Does no one care about sport anymore? Is this just a technical excercise with the world's highest paid trained monkeys?

from this week's Autosport
quote from Nigel Roebuck
quote:
"in motor racing there was a time when weaving, blocking, baulking, call it what you like, was decried as 'dirty driving'. People in their 20s and 30s tend to blink in disbelief when they hear something like this, but, believe me, it was once the case. For one thing, 'sportsmanship' was considered important, and there was the belief that chopping across a driver who had beaten you to a corner was not only unethical, but also rather pathetic: anyone, after all, could keep ahead if he were prepared to do that."
Says it all really.

[djb]

I posted this a few days ago and sums up my opinion of what is "sportsmanlike" behavior. As P.Mallet mentioned in another thread, the FIA does allow this so there really isn't a question of arguing about it, but it is still fair enough to have an opinion on the sportsmanship side of it.

"Today I read the Nigel Roebuck answer to a question concerning weaving and general bad behaviour in modern racing. His views are nothing new, and ones that I agree with completely.

Interesting are the views by Phil Hill, Tony Brooks, Moss and Rosberg, basically saying that the safety of the cars nowadays are the main reason behind the "lack of respect" (Rosbergs words) that is behind the attitudes of some drivers in the last 15 or 20 years.
The safety aspect is right on the money, because in the experience I had in doing some production motorcycle racing, the fact that you are perched up on a bike and open to whatever if you tangle with another bike, means that there was a lot of "forced" respect during starts, passing situations, outbraking maneuvers etc and so reading of the 50's and 60's drivers points of view really rung true with my biking experience. (albeit rather small)

So, has a number of you have stated, the key thing will be in the enforcing, and I'm sure that there will be unhappy campers when it comes down to getting penalized while other similiar situations manage to squeak by. It is going to be hard though, when the respect for other drivers just isn't the same as in the past, and when a number of situations in the past years unfortunately helps form the younger drivers attitudes."

PS "That I used the term "forced respect" but I find that in bike racing there is still a more traditional respect for other drivers, although I'm very aware that it is there as a result of the physical realities of going up against someone while on two wheels.

also, that while a jumpstart or pitlane limit penalty is pretty well black and white, blocking and weaving will always involve human judgement and human error, but despite that, the people in charge really have to stop waffling on this and be consistent."

[eatapc]

The "chop" is legal. There need be no debate about that. We've seen it happen many dozens of times, and the FIA clearly means for the rule about no "more than one change of direction" to take precedence over the "premature changes of direction" example cited in the ruleboook. The only issue here is whether the current interpretation of the rule is good for the sport, or dangerous and foolhardy.

Inigo makes a good case that we should let the guys race. Race Aficianado (courtesy Nigel Roebuck) makes an interesting case that a slower car chopping a faster one is bad racing. I don't think there's an easy answer. My heart leans toward the Nigel Roebuck point of view. We decry the lack of passing, and part of the problem is that unsportsmanlike blocking is tolerated. On the other hand, my head tells me that policing this may be next to impossible. Do we want the stewards to be handing out penalties -- the kind of bizarre and inconsistent penalty they imposed on JPM -- several times a race, race after race? That sort of official intrusion into the racing would kill the sport.

[djb]

eata, I agree. My comparison with bike racing was to simply to show how the physical dangers affect the overall sportsmanship aspect. As you mention, the policing is tough, and with officiating of any sport, human judgement and errors (and compensating for lax or perceived lax officiating) will always play a role, and as in all sports, will result in fans arguing on and on about specific incidents.

ps, nice to see that you added to your location the answer to the 70's SNL question, "what exit are you from" (please add accent)

[eatapc]

So do you really put maple syrup on your bagels?

[djb]

only if there isn't any cream cheese around.
(but I wouldn't put it past my wife, she has a serious sweet tooth!)

[Nicholas]

I suppose this is part of the reason why TGF has said that he wouldn't have raced 20 or 30 years ago.

[Fuel]

Originally posted by Spudgun
The move was legal, but I still don't agree with it.. It could have easily ended in tears, resulting in 10 cars being taken out.. again..

maybe webber would have finished 5th again???

[Fuel]

Originally posted by Spudgun
The move was legal, but I still don't agree with it.. It could have easily ended in tears, resulting in 10 cars being taken out.. again..

maybe webber would have finished 5th again!!!

[RaceFreak]

C'mon gents.... we've seen this behavior from MS time and time again. I have little doubt that Monty would T-bone him given the opportunity. Can't wait.