Customer cars way to go?

[pink69]

An idea put forward in Autosport a while ago was reintroducting customer cars. Allowing the privateer teams to buy year old works cars could save them millions on developing the chassis and engine, but no doubt the works teams would charge a bomb per car so it will still cost alot. Another good idea to reduce costs though.

[Champ69]

If there is someone that has this autosport issue could you please scan the pics of the customer cars. I saw it in the nesagents but did not buy it.

[Jukebox]

Then there would be no difference from the other formula series if teams were to use the same chassis and engines. This idea is a step back for the future of motorsports.

[Mekola]

Perhaps it is a "step back" for the future of motorsport if we thinks on purity form, but a chance of salvation for middle teams and also a well test bank for the top teams, who can use minor teams to cooperate with them.

[Jukebox]

What Formula1 needs are more car manufacturers to be directly involved like Ferrari, Mercedez, BMW, Renault, Honda & Toyota. They need to attract car manufacturers by giving incentives in some way as to get them into Formula1 in the long term. Bernie should not always think of their pockets but to think of the future of Formula as well. Teams using the same customer engines and chassis won't go anywhere but remain as midfield players.

[Gt_R]

I'm not in favour of selling customer cars.... i mean, what's the point? They might as well make the big teams run 4 cars each and get rid the back markers...waitaminute... dint somebody suggest something like this? And i don't like it either!

I agree with Jukebox on this one... its a step back. While midfields can save a little money (buying wholesale cars isn't exactly cheapest), what's the exact chance of them winning with older cars? Even if they could win, then whats the worth of the WCC?

Keeping the regulations of the cars unchanged for a period of 6 to 10 years, would be a better option though to a lesser impact. The teams do not have to invest too heavily into designing a totally new car every year, but evolve their existing model like the way Ferrari evolves their 98 to 99 model. Thus even if money is too big a problem, they can simply use their OWN car from the previous year to compete ie Arrows 98 to 99.

[Mekola]

Originally posted by Jukebox
What Formula1 needs are more car manufacturers to be directly involved like Ferrari, Mercedez, BMW, Renault, Honda & Toyota. They need to attract car manufacturers by giving incentives in some way as to get them into Formula1 in the long term. Bernie should not always think of their pockets but to think of the future of Formula as well. Teams using the same customer engines and chassis won't go anywhere but remain as midfield players.

More car manufacturers??? Where??? If nearly all the main automobile companies have involved in one or other form in F1 motorsport (only rests GM, Audi, Volkswagen and Peugeot). Fiat (Ferrari), Ford (Jaguar), Toyota and Renault are directly involved in F1. Mercedes and BMW are very involved with teams McLaren and Williams and we could say both companies are semi-directly involved in F1. And at last only Honda (and the Asiatech project) can be concerned as the manufacturer what is indirectly involved in F1. Smaller companies will not have chance because they don't have the money and infraestructure to compete with the big ones.
Perhaps the teams with customer engines and chassis won't go anywhere, but it could be a good place to made contracts with top teams and test some young talented drivers what are contracted in long term with top teams.

[Jukebox]

GT_R has a point there in using last year's chassis and engine and they just need to refine those package.

There certainly are a lot of car manufactures that aren't directly aor indirectly involved with Formula1 now Mekola. I can name a few...Nissan, Peugeot, Vauxhall, GM, Volkswagen, Lotus, Porsche and Hyundai. If they don't have the experience then they could always work with the existing teams like Jordan, Minardi, Arrows and Sauber.

[Gt_R]

Hehehe... Rory always said his new cars are "evolutions", well it is evolution for him, but to others they are "revolutions"~

There are still a few manufacturers not involved in F1 now, with GM and VW the most probable. Nissan most probably won't make it due to its relationship with Renault, Peugeot who had an unhappy exit from F1 and is now doing well in WRC won't be missing F1. Hyundai had aims to be the top 5 automaker in the world, and ambitious motorsporting plans, seems likely to want to come F1 in the distant future, but how that fits their image is a question mark. As for Porsche and Lotus... i WANT them back!!! It would certainly add on to the prestige of F1 *dreaming*!!

Its possible...but its up to those who has the controls...

[kmchow]

I think the difficulty with GM is the fact the company has too many numerous brands. There's Opel/Holden/Vauxhall/Chevrolet/GM as the largest brands. So which do you use? Luckily, the other manufacturers all share very similar, if not exactly the same car/brand, in all global markets.

VW would be the next biggest brand that would have no problems marketing their F1 car as either an VW or Audi. It's all recognisable?

Hyundai would be another good candidate brand wise, their brand/cars are available almost anywhere.

I have to admit,the idea of customer cars is very intriguing as the one year old privateer cars would probably be much closer, competitively, than they are now. By sharing engines/chassis, surely they can reduce a lot of costs. Unless of course, the top teams charge outrageous amounts for their one year old equipment. OTOH, if the teams don't accept a "carrot", perhaps the F1 organizers must step in with a "stick" and forcibly require all teams to supply customer cars, while capping the cost they charge at 30-40M?? How's that?

[Gt_R]

FIA can't even make "selfish" manufacturers like Mercedes and BMW supply a 2nd team with year-old engines... Minardi, Arrows, Jordan...chassis is not the main weakness they have, but what is lacking is a top notch powerhorse.

I'm in to get FIA to force, when required by situations, manufacturers to sell their year-old engines to (at least one) private team at affordable prices...

[DNQ]

This the one Champ69?



Top one is a Williams-Arrows
Second is a McLaren-Jordan
Third is a Ferrari-Minardi

[Big Mac]

I know that Formula One is the pinnacle of motorsport. It always has been and, hopefully, always will be. But the current rate of spiraling costs are unsustainable and the spectacle is, in my view, diminishing with the number of cars on the grid.

Therefore I do like this concept of customer cars. I think it would be a positive for the sport as, in my view, the more cars we see on the grid the better. The selling of year-old chassis from "Works" (McLaren, Ferrari, Williams etc) to “Privateer” and/or the car manufactures would be f some benefit to the sport. It could even be a way of enticing those manufactures not in F1 at the moment to join as they would not need to fund the cost of chassis manufacturing or merging/partnering with an already established team.

[Big Mac]

Ferrari-Minardi!!!

I would love to see this happen again!!

[Wrex]

OK - to take this thread is a slightly different direction, try this. Assuming the top 4 (or however many are required) constructors had to supply car and engine to another team, what teams are likely to go for what cars?

Minardi

Arrows

Jordan

Sauber

Sauber - Mercedes (history there), Jordan BMW, Arrows Renault & Minardi Ferrari (wishful thinking)

[DNQ]

Wrex, I'd say it'd be like this...

Sauber - Ferrari (already got the motor)
Jordan - McLaren (both british teams)
Arrows - Jaguar (god knows why they'd want to, but...?)
Minardi - Williams (Wishful Thinking again )

[Big Mac]

Hypothetically speaking.
If customer cars came back, do you think that we would see names such as Lotus, Brabham etc. reappearing ??

[Wrex]

Seriously, this is a pipe dream anyway.

If you were Williams spending millions to find that extra tenth of a second, would you really want to hand that car over to someone else?

[steve_r]

Would Mclaren, Williams & Ferrari really let privateers get their hands on their technology without wanting some kind of influence over the private team? I think the big three would be paranoid about the others copying their technology (even if it is a year old)- any customer would need all the electronc and computer stuff to run the cars.

Another point to consider is that some years (Ferrari, this year for example) the big teams run last years car at the start of the season. In this situation surely they would not want a replica car from a smaller team competing on level terms.

Also, any time there are major rule changes the year old chassis may be illegal to run (unless the FIA set up a 2 tier championship for the older cars).

[Gt_R]

We are all talking about keeping cost down, and hence instead of developing their own chassis, private teams should buy a chassis from the top team. If private teams really feel that top teams are taking the game away from them, why don't a few private teams come together, pool their resources/money together, and design one good chassis for them to race with? For example, BAR and Jordan could... Jaguar and Arrows could... Minardi and Arrows could...(NOT with the TV money thingy )...but you get what i mean. Greatly lower costs, and you get an up to date chassis to beat the big boys.

Afterall, for the former 2 examples, they basically share the same engine... of course, there is a rivalry between the 2 teams... but that's easy to settle... develope the chassis together... but any update/fine-tuning along the season is up to the individual teams...

That way, we keep things cheap and competitive.

[Red]

Kinda strange conception here. I believe that they don't want to reduce costs per se, but rather not to widen the gap between the rich and poor anyfurther. How a 5 steps behind chassis would increase the competition, why a rich team would want that and, if yes, at what price per chassis, are still opaque mysteries for me. Anyway, I believe that Formula 1 is so different because actually each team has to develop it's own car. We do have so many stock car series, why would anyone want another one? Just because it's labeled "Formula 1"? If it were my way I'd make a Formula 1 series in which each team has to built the engines as well...

[kmchow]

The debate would now be, would a 1 year old car be worse off than a "current year car designed by a Privateer team"?

If there are rules forbidding one year old cars, a simple change in rules would solve it.

But as someone suggested, would the top teams want their one year old technology being used by another team? I guess there's no way to seal the engines from the prying eyes of the independent teams? Yet again, surely there has been advances over the course of one year that the top teams would stay in the top, but still leaving privateers being more closer in terms of competitiveness??

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by kmchow
I guess there's no way to seal the engines from the prying eyes of the independent teams?

I had heard that the customer Audi R8s last year had parts that were kept by the factory, only brought out for testing and race weekends. The teams weren't allowed to tinker with the engine, or do any mods to the chassis or body - basically they could change settings for driveability, and put their own paint on it.

If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.

Compared to that, the Porsche 956/962s were sold carte blanche, and teams did a lot of private development, as well as getting factory support (often the factory would run new specs a couple of races, shake the bugs out, and then pass them on once they became positive developments). But Porsche has always been a customer-oriented constructor.

I should think that so long as a manufacturer could be closely identified with its chassis' success, it wouldn't mind letting the teams develop them - especially if it cared more about the WCC than the WDC. That's why customer chassis work so well in sportscars. I'm not so sure that F1's (apparent) focus on WDC lends itself to this.

[Markules]

I dare say the teams wouldn't have a problem selling their year old machinary on to someone who's given up chassis development (after all, what good is a year old machine to them once it's been replaced? This way they could get an extra £X million to spend on their new car), my only concern if I was buying one was how much of an update would it recieve during the course of the year, as presumably the supplying team wouldn't want to waste time on updating the old machinary. If you look at other motorsport categories where this has been done, the number of successful outfits doing so is limited.

Perhaps what would be better would be to allow, say, Arrows, Minardi and Jordan to develop their own chassis between them, or comission someone like Lola to. If they did that, they could cut the R&D costs, they'd only need one wind tunnel, etc, and the chassis could be upgraded on a regular basis without fear of "political" interferance.

That's my take on it at any rate.