Ferrari's complete lack of respect!

neilap · 4 Oct 2002, 15:20 (Ref:395831)

I have replied to other posts on this topic but it seemed to be a bit off-topic. So here is a post dedicated totally to opinions of Ferrari's tactics this year and in previous years.

My point is that F1 is bigger than Ferrari. F1 is about the fans. If we are not being given what we want we will go elsewhere. There are those of us that will watch it till death, I may be one of them but the new fans will be easily turned off. If the USGP was my first F1 race I dint think I would want to watch it again.

Ferrari owes F1 an apology. They owe the lesser teams an apology too. In American football this would be called unsportsmanlike conduct/taunting. I want to see racing. I want to see a race where RB and MS fight each other. I want to see a clear victor. What is Ferrari afraid of?

I am not the only one of this opinion either http://f1.racing-live.com/en/index.h...4559.shtml</a>

Is Ferrari bad for the sport?

I am Tifosi · 4 Oct 2002, 16:10 (Ref:395860)

Ferrari is an icon in F1. Always has been, always will. Many teams have come and gone in GP over 60 something years, yet Ferrari still remains. I don't see any need for apologies from any team. What Ferrari did was no big deal and certainly isn't the primary reason not to watch F1. The lack of competition is the problem. Don't blame a competitor for this.

Now, Bernie is a different story. If you are looking for apologies for the sad state of affairs in F1, call Bernie.

freud · 4 Oct 2002, 16:32 (Ref:395878)

Being a Tifosi myself, I am just totally disappointed by the current Ferrari management of Luca, Toad, Brawn and M Schu. But I wouldnt blame the hardworking Ferrari engineers and the 'true' unblinded Tifosi who have criticized Ferrari for their post 1996 actions. The dream of Enzo Ferrari was to built a foundation for competitive motorsports. The dream of current Ferrari management is 'make money & make TGF win by any possible means'. I think the Ferrari management is totally under control of Webber and Schu as both of them control the sponsorship that Marlboro & Shell generates for his salary and the Ferrari budget.

Being a true Tifoso, I wouldnt say that 'Ferrari lacks respect', but I would say that 'Ferrari management of Toad/Schu/Luca/Brawn has no respect for fans'. Period. And I would like all True Tifosi to join me...

JohnSSC · 4 Oct 2002, 18:11 (Ref:395939)

Freud - "Post 1996 actions"?? I think I detect another anti-Schumi thread! I guess those of us who like Ferrari should think back to the days when the team was a backmarker. A "true" Tifosi I guess is one defined as someone who is proud of Ferrari's past - like they should have been frozen in time somewhere.

If we are going to indict Ferrari on the making a profit bit, then we need to be cognizant that Williams, McLaren et al aren't exactly out there pretending to be the Peace Corps! Face it, you either make money, or you join Prost, Arrows etc in the F1 obituary column.

Was the Ferrari move an "in-your-face" move at the USGP? Yes. Any less so than Audi lining up for the umpteenth time for a photo opportunity? I don't think so. Despite the claims that Michael's barrister (who apparently is the greatest living legal mind in history) has everything "right there in the contract" (has anyone actually seen RB's contract? Didn't think so.) for to ensure his success, I still would like to know what contract the other teams are following? I mean, no one is preventing them from going out and doing something really radical like building a car that can compete, are they?

In every racing series I have ever heard of, there is not one sanctioning body that stipulates that it is somehow the various team's responsibility to have everything "be about the fans." That is the sactioning bodies' responsibility: to make and promote rules that best suits the needs of that particular form of racing, and by extension, the fans.

I am really tired of postings that state emphatically that "the dream of current Ferrari management is to make money & make TGF win by any possible means." (as if winning is some sinister goal) Unless someone here is Ferrari management that is pure speculation. Period. Would not it make more sense to say it is any team's goal to make money and win? Somehow though since Ferrari has figured out how to do so there is some sort of criminal intent implied. If McLaren were able to grid a car that was so good that Drvier X won each time out do think they would say "Oh my this is boring! Let's screw-up intentionally so everyone else catches up!"

Lets be real - pretty please. I apologize in advance if I have stepped on anyone's toes!

PS - and please: no mention of Jerez '97!!!

**Bononi** · 4 Oct 2002, 18:39 (Ref:395955)

tsk, tsk...:confused:

Sato san · 4 Oct 2002, 22:30 (Ref:396066)

Neil..im with you all the way on this one....F1 is bigger and better than Ferrari is or will be .

Its about time they relised it IMO.

z2252314 · 5 Oct 2002, 00:29 (Ref:396119)

Quote:

The dream of Enzo Ferrari was to built a foundation for competitive motorsports.

Well from the biographies and books Ive read on the man, his dream was more to build a race winning car and team.
If your suggesting that Enzo was against team orders, think again. In fact, I think if you pick up a biography of Enzo or a Ferrari history book you'll be quite suprised at some of internal politics which have existed within Ferrari, even while Enzo was at the helm. If you listen to people who knew the man, they would be honest and tell you that he would have disagreed with Austria 2002. Not for the use of team orders, but rather for the blatant fashion in which they where carried out. Enzo had his favourites, and team orders where part and parcel of Ferrari policy during the Enzo era, although he had a much more subtle way of carrying it out. Enzo had a passion for motorsports unmatched by anyone, but to say that he was free of politics is bending the truth.

During the period just before his death, his close friends and family have stated how sad and despondant he felt that his cars where not winning. To say that Ferrari post 96' is a period of shame for Ferrari is nonsense. Pre-96 was more distressing with internal politics nearly destroying the team. Believe me, Enzo would no better than anyone else, that in all era's there are good times and bad. During a period where the good times have definately outweighed the bad, its hard to imagine that Enzo would be dissapointed with the current F1 team.

Quote:

F1 is bigger and better than Ferrari is or will be .

Yes, but I think people must remember that Ferrari have given a lot more to F1 than they have taken out. Yes, F1 is bigger than Ferrari, but are they as big without Ferrari? Definately not.

neilap · 5 Oct 2002, 02:29 (Ref:396150)

Ferrari has gotten much more from the sport. All of the teams owe F1. We, who sit up to watch or who pay to see the sport are F1. I don't know how this is not seen by some. Think of DC's win in Monaco, better yet Mika in last years GP. These were great drives by great drivers. Ferrari and MS have have strayed from the plot. This is a sport where the best in the world compete. If you are the best then behave like the best.
I do not particularly dislike Ferrari or MS. I am an F1 fan but they are destroying it. Even the media tried to make a feeble cover-up for the poor finish to what would have been a great race.

Sato san · 5 Oct 2002, 06:58 (Ref:396172)

Quote:

Originally posted by z2252314

. Yes, F1 is bigger than Ferrari, but are they as big without Ferrari? Definately not.

the way things are going this season , i think F1 would be a lot better off without them .I really think that !

Team orders are part of F1 , but this has all gone to another level with the mockery that the sport has been made to look .

They have a responability to at least keep the sport in a good light , which they are not doing one bit . Michael thinks he can do what he likes , and so does Mr Toad , Brawn etc .

It is still possible to have a dominant car and win every Race and hold your head up high .....they just choose not to .

bosch! · 5 Oct 2002, 06:58 (Ref:396173)

Do Ferrari lack respect? i couldnt quite put into words what troubled be about the way they went racing but patrick head, concierge to FW put his finger right on it, hell yes! they do lack respect.

For F1, for competition for sportsmanship & the rest of the teams on the grid. example, when you are sweating blood looking for the odd point TFG & RB's staged finish in indi must have, aparently did did make the blood boil. it was all to easy and they couldnt help letting everybody know. Just like michaels super quick 2s faster laps at the end of the races do, too easy losers. farrari are not bigger than the sport, and it is still a sport.

Bernie needs to put some manners on them.

Sato san · 5 Oct 2002, 07:06 (Ref:396175)

.

Sato san · 5 Oct 2002, 07:06 (Ref:396176)

yes....they need commending for producing such a fine piece of kit , and now they need a education in how to use it to its full potential without ruining the sport . No one is having a go for winning everything, they deserve it afterall...its more to do with the way they are bringing the sport into a bad light because of their total arrogance . I used to e a massive ferrari fan up to about 3 / 4 years ago...sometimes now , i feel embarresed to be wearing my Ferrari jacket when i go out . I might as well have a jacket with a Hulk Hogan on it instead as that sport was just a made up staged act too.

z2252314 · 5 Oct 2002, 08:01 (Ref:396197)

Ferrari have admitted that the decisions taken in Austria where wrong (yes, it took some time, but they did admit this). I think people are straying off the point here. The USGP was not a fix, but rather a cock up on the drivers behalf. Michael and Rubens raced hard until the second pit stop, and then like any other team would do in a one-two scenario, they asked their drivers to conserve the cars to the end.

Quote:

the way things are going this season , i think F1 would be a lot better off without them .I really think that !

If you think F1 lost a few fans because of the Austria debacle, then imagine how many fans F1 would lose if Ferrari were removed from the competition. The truth is that while Ferrari are not bigger than the sport, the sport itself would be in serious trouble if Ferrari decided to pull out.

p.s The real story here is that everybody is annoyed at the lack of competition this year. They vent this anger by trying to twist events. As I said before, the USGP was not a fix but a stuff up on the drivers behalf.

Quote:

I used to e a massive ferrari fan up to about 3 / 4 years ago...sometimes now , i feel embarresed to be wearing my Ferrari jacket when i go out

hahah, this has become the cliche anti-ferrari line this year. I used to be a ferrari fan but blah blah blah blah. I'd be willing to bet a good quid your wardrobe has never contained such a piece. By the way, it didnt look the real ferrari fans were dissapointed with the team at Monza this year.

P.S can anyone guess which F1 race had the highest viewer ratings this year ?

Mr V · 5 Oct 2002, 12:03 (Ref:396295)

Quote:

Originally posted by z2252314
I think people are straying off the point here. The USGP was not a fix, but rather a cock up on the drivers behalf.

I don't think that anyone believes that this was a "fix" as oppossed to a "cock up", however, imo, playing around as they did, is showing a lack of respect.

neilap · 5 Oct 2002, 15:20 (Ref:396360)

F1 would lose some Ferrari fans if Ferrari left, thats it. The rest of the world that likes racing and not just Ferrari would still watch and would more than likely enjoy the sport even more. I dont get the rationale behind F1 needing Ferrari. Ferrari needs F1! Where else are they showcased? Where else have they been successful? Dont they all break down every year at Le-Mans?

Think of a driver like JV. He has had a dud car for four years. He worked hard all season to drive his a$$ off. This race he did his utmost with the new motor and improved chassis to beat three teams that at the beginning of the season were far above him. Think if Jag. who looked good the last two races only to get it wrong in qualifying. For Ferrari to go out a lap each of them by half of the race is a show of power and preparation, that is good; for them to fool around with the victory is disrespectful. There were 17 other drivers who would probably give a body part just to have the opportunity, but MS decides its a game to play. Does anyone think JPM would have done that? I doubt it! He is a racer, that is his job and he does it well.

I only hope that this motivates all the other teams to spend every dime they have on development to make their equipment better, including Michelin. Maybe a losing season will bring Ferrari back to earth. Ferrari's job in F1 is to entertain, not to play games.

z2252314 · 5 Oct 2002, 15:45 (Ref:396368)

Quote:

MS decides its a game to play

But thats exactly it, Michael wasnt trying to play games and disrespect the F1 public. He thought it would be a nice gesture for the both of them to finish in formation (with him being first!). In order to criticize Michael for the Indy GP, you have to consider whether any of the following questions are true.

Did Michael intend to hand over the lead to Rubens?

Did Michael intend to demonstrate a lack of disrespect to opposing teams or the F1 public?

If Rubens did what Michael expected him to do, would there be all this uproar?

The answer to all these three are no. If everything went as Michael intended then you would have seen a formation finish between the two, and very little would have been spoken of the USGP. I think some forum members are trying to twist Michaels motives to vent off their frustration at Ferrari's dominance.

Mr V · 5 Oct 2002, 15:53 (Ref:396372)

Quote:

Originally posted by z2252314

If Rubens did what Michael expected him to do, would there be all this uproar?

But, as i've said before, how was Rubens meant to know what Michael was thinking at the time. I've got to say that, when i was watching it and saw Michael go extremely wide at the last bend, so far wide that he went up high and onto the dirty part of the track, i thought that he was letting Rubens through and i'm sure that this was what Rubens thought also as they hadn't discussed it before hand. If they had discussed it before hand then it would have been another "race fix".

Mr V · 5 Oct 2002, 15:58 (Ref:396376)

Quote:

Originally posted by z2252314

If Rubens did what Michael expected him to do, would there be all this uproar?

But, as i've said before, how was Rubens meant to know what Michael was thinking at the time. I've got to say that, when i was watching it and saw Michael go extremely wide at the last bend, so far wide that he went up high and onto the dirty part of the track, i thought that he was letting Rubens through and i'm sure that this was what Rubens thought also as they hadn't discussed it before hand. If they had discussed it before hand then it would have been another "race fix".

z2252314 · 5 Oct 2002, 16:10 (Ref:396391)

I agree MrV, that's why it was a cock up. Rubens didnt know what Michael was doing, but Michael assumed Rubens knew what he was doing. At the end of the day, Michael didnt intend to do what many people are claiming. Im sure he regrets trying a formation finish.

429CJ · 5 Oct 2002, 16:30 (Ref:396399)

Well, I don't care if there is Ferrari in F1 or not. I am, allways have been and allways will be a supporter of Williams.

neilap · 5 Oct 2002, 20:39 (Ref:396493)

I don't think it was a mistake. MS does not take chances like that. If he wanted a photo finish he would have radioed in the lap before and set it up. Also, they were not racing hard. RB never tried ot pass, he was hoping to pass in the pits.

I know I may sound anti-Ferrari, I am not. In fact I am almost a fan. I am amazed at how superior their equipment is. (Even though they have an unfair advantage) I am also impressed at how consistently MS laps; each lap is within a couple tenths of the other. The only competition MS has is RB who is arguably not in his caliber. So let them race!! That is all I want. I would love to see the Ferrari's duke it out.

Mr V · 5 Oct 2002, 21:20 (Ref:396512)

Quote:

Originally posted by neilap
The only competition MS has is RB who is arguably not in his caliber. So let them race!! That is all I want. I would love to see the Ferrari's duke it out.

I believe that you've hit the nail on the head Neil. I don't think anybody can deny that Ferrari are the best at the moment, or that they deserve to be, but, as you say, Rubens is nowhere as good as Michael, so let them race. Better than that would be to put a driver in that seat who can race him and is allowed, but i don't think that Michael would allow that.

JR27 · 5 Oct 2002, 21:36 (Ref:396524)

hmmm... just got back from the USGP by way of exotic Topeka Kansas ( my grandsons first birthday party).....thought I'd check in to see if there were any signs of intelligent life and was immediately drawn to JohnSSC's post.....very nicely put there JohnSCC..... but as a fellow Western PA'er...what else could I have expected!

As far as the race weekend went...lots of highlights for this big boy....especially watching from about 10 yards the various machines coming off of turn 6 on to the "infield straight"......some of 'em worked great....and some were a real handfull ( Jaguar, Toyota, and HHF's Sauber)....also was simply bowled over by my "private" tour of Chip Ganassi's Race Shop....words can't describe just how facinating that place is (and since photo's were not permitted.....)

I've been a tifosi since 1972 when I watched Jacky Ickx and Clay Regazzoni at Mosport Park ( I was 25 ) and I remember the "bad times".... Arturo Merzario and the '73 .....Zolder in 1982....1992 through 1995.....F1 is very cyclical....and Ferrari is enjoying a good ride over the past 5 years......Ferrari doesn't owe me an apology

Murph

z2252314 · 6 Oct 2002, 13:33 (Ref:396840)

Quote:

The only competition MS has is RB who is arguably not in his caliber. So let them race!! That is all I want. I would love to see the Ferrari's duke it out.

Which is exactly what they did up until the second pit stop. If they werent racing each other, then why would MS post 4 consecutive fastest laps before his pitstop? And why did Rubhino set a fastest lap while Michael was in the pits?
Agreed, after the second stop they called off the race. But any team in such a position would do the same thing.

z2252314 · 6 Oct 2002, 13:36 (Ref:396845)

Quote:

Well, I don't care if there is Ferrari in F1 or not. I am, allways have been and allways will be a supporter of Williams.

You may not, but considering Ferrari fans outnumber Williams fans by at least 10-1, it would certainly hurt F1 if Ferrari did abandon the sport.

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