Engine Rumor!

[Dov]

Seventhgear is reporting that there are new and old engine manufacturers interested in CART in 2005. John Lopes, CART's VP of Operations, made reference today in a press conference that as of right now there are up to 5 different manufacturers who are showing interest in the 2005 rules modifications packages. No companies were named.

[Lee Janotta]

"showing interest"...

Motorsport/high performance departments are almost always interested. It's the beancounters that squash their plans. A reason why CART needs an engine package which offers better value, not V-10 racing-only engines which don't even share parts with their F1 cousins. It's a huge waste of resources when you can easily put together a reliable 800hp turbocharged engine using a stock block, some custom heads, cams and intake, and a the rest of the internals could come right out of the race parts catalogs (pistons, crankshafts, oil pumps, etc).

[BSchneiderFan]

So who do we think these companies are?

VAG? Porsche? GM? Renault/Nissan?

[Dov]

John Lopes, CART's VP of Operations mentioned that one of the engine manufacturers would be from CART's feeder series..... Toyota or Dodge? Iv'e also heard Chris Pook mention Porsche and Audi.

[BootsOntheSide]

Toyota? I doubt it. Dodge would make sense as they have stepped up their NASCAR involvement, if CART still has a significant American base by then that would be a great development.

[veeten]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
"showing interest"...

Motorsport/high performance departments are almost always interested. It's the beancounters that squash their plans. A reason why CART needs an engine package which offers better value, not V-10 racing-only engines which don't even share parts with their F1 cousins. It's a huge waste of resources when you can easily put together a reliable 800hp turbocharged engine using a stock block, some custom heads, cams and intake, and a the rest of the internals could come right out of the race parts catalogs (pistons, crankshafts, oil pumps, etc).

It's always good to take the plowhorse out for some exercise, isn't it Lee...

It'll be V-10s. Resistance is futile, Lee...

[Lee Janotta]

"Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light."

-Dylan Thomas

Besides, I've got Ford on my side. If CART's learned anything, it should be that Ford is their greatest ally.

Remember, this time last year, we were resigned to 3.5L V8s.

[veeten]

And they also make V-10s, don't they?

Cosworth, Mugen(Acura), Maserati(Ferrari), Chrysler(Mercedes-Illmor), Lexus(Toyota-Meccachrome), BMW, even MG/Judd just to name a few.
Outside of the valvetrain and other things, the basic designs will be similar to F1, with changes to suit Champ Car's needs. And the 2-year window gives manufacturers ample time to have a ready stock of engines for each teams contractural agreements. Not to mention the newer rules for extended life mills for '05-and beyond for F1 allows them to do all of the hard development, while CART stands to reap the rewards.

It'll be V-10s. You know it, and I know it...

[Lee Janotta]

Huge engine in a truck (and F1 V-10), F1, F1, F1 and Viper, F1, F1, sportscars (F1-derived).

They won't share any parts in common with the F1 engines, as Pook's said.

I think they had a better shot at selling us on the IRL V8s! At least more than 2 companies have V-8 engines on the street!

Just repeating it ad nauseum doesn't make it true. Doesn't make the War on Drugs a success, doesn't make Schumacher the greatest driver ever, and it doesn't make V-10s inevitable.

[Jay]

they might not share any parts, but I'd imagine a lot of the R&D work (which makes up the majority of the budget) that's been done for the F1 engines would apply to a similar engine for Cart. Just a thought anyway...

[veeten]

...and that is what's called cost/benefit analysis, Jay. Highest amount of return for the lowest amount of principle. Why start up a brand new development program, with all of the inherit costs, when you can take a proven end and modify it for newer purposes.
Self explanitory, really.

[Omega99]

I still better hear the sound of turbos though...

[Lee Janotta]

Exactly veeten. Why cast new blocks, forge new rods, crankshafts and pistons, go through all that mess when you can just pull parts from your parts bin and GT/touring car programs?

[Dov]

I understand what Lee and Veeten are saying...why change something that already works (V8 Turbos), but most race fans like competition between engine manufacturers and those engine companies may not want to come back to or join CART unless they (CART) changes their specs to V10 NA. On one hand I would rather have V10 NA engines if it brought in new manufacturers or old ones, on the other hand a V8 Turbo might be the perfect fit for a CART car. Then again, if different engine manufacturers had a year to a year and a half to build a V10 NA engine(s) and test them in a CART car, they could be just as good. Who the hell no's?

[Jordi]

Heck, I just want any engines powering my favourite drivers in my favourite championship...

[macdaddy]

Notice all the Mercedes ads lining the walls at St. Petes?

[Snrub]

Chr!st, how many times do I have to post this?!?

Then again, if different engine manufacturers had a year to a year and a half to build a V10 NA engine(s) and test them in a CART car, they could be just as good. Who the hell no's?

They will never be as good, it's physically impossible to make a cheap N/A V10 produce the peak power let alone power/torque curve of a turbocharged engine of similar displacement. This year CART is down from 17000RPM to 12000RPM, peak power is down only THRITY HP! The curve is much meatier. The engine package relates to affordability, competitiveness and racing action. Coming out of a tight corner on a street course we don't want the fans racing the cars on foot for the first 100 feet.

[norman-normal]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
Exactly veeten. Why cast new blocks, forge new rods, crankshafts and pistons, go through all that mess when you can just pull parts from your parts bin and GT/touring car programs?

CART V-8's related to what touring cars?:confused:

[Lee Janotta]

V-6s, Norman. 3.5L ones beefed up but using stock blocks. With turbos. Easily good for 700hp and a fat torque curve.

If we can't keep the V-8s, we might as well get something close and cheaper.

[norman-normal]

Stock block 3.5L V6's would not hold up to 700HP for CART races. IRL's getting about all thier good for. Real racing requires real racing engines.

[Lee Janotta]

They got very close with an _old_ pushrod design, with the Buick/Menards V6. Renault, Peugeot and Porsche have all done it with sports and GT cars. Ask Porsche engineers, they'll tell you without blinking they can build a 700hp gasoline-powered version of the 3.4L flat six, and get it to go 1500 miles without losing more than a couple ponies.

[Snrub]

Naturally aspirated you're right. That's why we like forced induction. You can get a LOT more. Recall in the 80s there were turbocharged 1.5L F1 Engines putting out 1300hp from production blocks. Correct me if I'm wrong, but IRL isn't based on a production block. I don't think they nessisarly need to be stock blocks, but having the basic dimensions would allow manufacturers to claim "this is what you have in your street car." There's no reason a 3.5L V6 can't similar power to a 2.65L V8.

[brightline]

Originally posted by macdaddy
Notice all the Mercedes ads lining the walls at St. Petes?

Locally Mercedes dealerships were major sponsors of the race, not Mercedes-Benz or Chrysler, or maybe that is what they want us to believe?/

[veeten]

Originally posted by Snrub
Naturally aspirated you're right. That's why we like forced induction. You can get a LOT more. Recall in the 80s there were turbocharged 1.5L F1 Engines putting out 1300hp from production blocks. Correct me if I'm wrong, but IRL isn't based on a production block. I don't think they nessisarly need to be stock blocks, but having the basic dimensions would allow manufacturers to claim "this is what you have in your street car." There's no reason a 3.5L V6 can't similar power to a 2.65L V8.

The only problem was that it was only BMW's engineers that could sustain that engine through the '81-'83 seasons, when they were working with Brabham. Otherwise, the major problems were the constant "grenading" when the engines were used by others, in their lesser varients. This was quite the similar to other engines on the grid, excepting Tyrrell who stayed with the N/A Cosworth V8.

By the way, Barber Dodge runs a N/A 3.5L DOHC V6 engine in their series. Rated at 265hp, it pulls the 1400lb. car to a max of 155mph.

The Buick/Menard V6 had a nasty propensity to "****-out" just before the 3/4 mark of the only race it entered, the Indy 500.

Then there's the aborted Porsche 2.65L turbo "Indy" engine, wonder why that one never made the grid at the brickyard?... even though it did make LeMans in '81, detuned to 600+hp.

[Snrub]

I have no idea why the Buick 3.8L weren't able to sustain races, but other people on here have told me the same thing you said.