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17 Jun 2003, 19:56 (Ref:634797)
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,215
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LM Tourney Beyond 2004....some thoughts
In another thread, I raised a question about whether or not there would be any kind of "rotation" of circuits into the mix of Lm Tourney events, and JAG eloquently pointed out that the ACO announcement indicated that since the four circuits -- Spa, Silverstone, Monza and Nurburgring -- are known for their famous 1000 km races that this seemed unlikely...and I agree that this seems to be the ACO's intent....
However, I want to suggest a possible "Rotation" anyway...and get everyone else's thoughts on what you'd like to see... Here it goes: If by any chance there would be consideration of a partial rotation of any kind, they could keep two of the four circuits for the next year in 2005, then alternate them every other year with the other two....(Monza & Nurburgring in 2005, Silverstone & Spa in 2006, etc.) They could do Brands Hatch or Donnington or any other British courses any of you would suggest as a "rotation" circuit in the years that Silverstone was not in the lineup, and maybe plug in a circuit from the Iberian peninsula (Estoril, Barcelona) within a once every three years visit...just for starters.... The rotations could be worked out so that two of these original four would be in any given year, Britain would have a race every year, and some other courses in other nations of Europe could be worked into the mix like the Iberian Idea once every three or so to give sportscar fans in many nations the chance to enjoy the major LM Tournament races in their homeland 2 or 3 times a decade... If there are courses in Germany or Italy that you would like to see in the mix in the years that Nurburgring or Monza are not in the rotation, that could be accommodated as well by the way I did the splits above on the original four....the circuit from one of those respective countries would always be slotted in the Silverstone & Spa rotation as the third event... The Iberian event could fall into either one once every three years, and other countries (Holland readily comes to mind, as well as two other French circuits -- Magny-Cours, or Dijon) as part of the once every three years rotation...... Even if the plan is to do those same four courses to revive the tradition of the 1000km's, those four circuits are excellent and there would be no objection on my part if they did exactly what is set now... But if you remember, we had been talking about this ACO-driven Tourney idea for months, and we doubted that the FIA would buy into it....our discussions turned into reality... Maybe a rotation of some sort could come about at some point... If so, this is the way I'd like to see it done... How about your ideas on this... |
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18 Jun 2003, 19:27 (Ref:635884)
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#2 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Hee is my first shot at the LM Events, at least through 2011, based on some of the guidelines I set out previously:
2005 Silverstone Spa Jarama Hockenheim 2006 Monza Nurburgring Brands Hatch Zandvoort 2007 Silverstone Spa Magny-Cours Hungaroring 2008 Monza Nurburgring Donnington Park Estoril 2009 Silverstone Spa Brno Nordschiefe (with revisions for safety concerns, etc) 2010 Monza Nurburgring Snetterton Barcelona 2011 Silverstone Spa A-1 Ring or Budapest Dijon or Val de Vienne A mix of geography and diferent circuits, while retaining the original four Your thoughts |
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Finally... One American Open Wheel Series!
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18 Jun 2003, 21:12 (Ref:635993)
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Two other notes:
If the news or Jarama being torn down to build houses is true, one could substitute Valencia in there... And if the Nordschiefe, for whatever reasons, would seem just not able to happen due to mega expenses for the changes to make it safe for LM tourney cars, substitute Oscherleben... |
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Finally... One American Open Wheel Series!
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18 Jun 2003, 21:55 (Ref:636040)
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Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 10,241
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You seen the pic of that Audi TT getting airbourne at the Flugplatz on fastdetails Tim?
That ramp has been severly planed off over the years too. Having a sportscar thundering down through there is inviting disaster. (and try getting everyone round Pfantzgarten (sp?)) Having smapled now ALMS at Silverstone and Donny, and having seen CART at brands, i can safely say that Donny is too ancient facilities for spectators wise (tsh, one miserable grandstand last time, and mud glorious f'ing mud) and Brnads is simply inadequate for sportscars (pitlane too narrow, no room on the Indy Circuit, no debris fencing on the GP circuit). Silverstone was a cracking race, it has first class facilities for spectators and temas alike, and is a challenging and exiting circuit for the drivers to race on, even if it is a little bit difficult to see from a spectators view. I'm perfectly happy with the set schedule of 1000k races at Silverstone, Monza, Spa, Nurburgring. Perhaps the only substitution i could make is Nurburgring for Estoril or Brno |
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18 Jun 2003, 22:08 (Ref:636050)
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Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,456
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Silverstone, Monza, and Spa is just fine with me. As for the Nurburgring, I don't think that endurance races should be held on stop-and-go circuits like the new Nurburgring. Endurance circuits should have longer straights than a typical F1 track so the faster cars can show their pace. So, I say, the owners of Hockenheim should stop their reclamation of the old loop and return it to its old glory for use as an enduro circuit.
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"There are some players who have psychologists, sportologists. I smoke." --golfer Angel Cabrera, when asked how he kept his composure whilst winning the 2007 U.S. Open, beating Tiger Woods by one stroke.
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18 Jun 2003, 22:14 (Ref:636055)
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,215
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I'm thinking about the long er circuit for Brands Hatch, and no, I didn't see the Audi TT pics....
But I thought the British sportscar fanatics would want a race each year with other circuits besides silverstone in its off-years would be to your liking... Of course I could cut you out of all but the Silverstone every other year, run Assen as a second Holland race, look into the Clermont-Ferrand "Big" course (if the old parts still exist), or just move Budapest or Val de Vienne off of the "Or" list... Don't get me wrong...the four they picked are excellent...but there are lots of sportscar fans in other parts of Europe that will have to do a lot of traveling to watch these cars run.... I'd like to spread the wealth and spread the growth of the sport with the LM Tourney as the tool to do it... |
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18 Jun 2003, 22:21 (Ref:636059)
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#7 | ||
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I do think that Estoril and Brno would be great stops for the Tourney...
and didn't they expand Zandevoort not too long ago??? I'd like weither that circuit or Assen in the mix... Finally, aren't the FIA Sportscar Protos running at Oscherleben this fall???? |
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Finally... One American Open Wheel Series!
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18 Jun 2003, 22:28 (Ref:636066)
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Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Wasn't the last Oscherleben race a flop last time?
Estoril and Brno are perfect sportscar courses IMO Tim, go look at that TT pic, it's really cool to see some fast cars on that circuit  And there's also a nice pic of the R8 been driven tentatively round the track tooIf Brands sort the pits and safety all the way round for CART, then a sportscar race there is a possiblilty |
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19 Jun 2003, 12:49 (Ref:636565)
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Rookie
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 98
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Opinions from the cockpit
As usual Tim said many interesting things and wrote them down togheter with his passion... but many of the circuit he "scheduled" are inadequate for sportscars...
Having driven on many of them, and having seen in reality or on TVv, or, alse, having talk with some friends whor aced there, here are my opinions  Silverstone: good circuit, very nice to drive on it [I raced there in 2001, in the European SuperProduction Championship race], good facilities for England. Ok for spotscars Spa: What can I say about Spa? Nthing more than what every driver else has already said... Ok for Sportscar Jarama: I think it's inadequate for sportscar. Except for the long straight, the rest is a succession of turnig and up and downhill... the high wheigh of sportscar would make the vehicles too slow in the most part of the circuit Hockenheim: Racing in the old and long one would be very nice for me, also if it's very narrow... Long straight and chicane are ok for sportscar. Ok Monza: Perfect for sportscars (In reality I would prefere Imola, becouse it's my home-race, but this track has the same problems Jarama has...) Nurburgring (New): Boring track, I personally hate it... Nurburgring (Old): Wonderful, but absolutely impossible make some 650 hp cars cars racing there... but a wonderful dream  Brands Hatch: Nice track, middle-age-type facilities... I don't know... but I think it's too narrow for big cars like ours Zandvoort: I raced there in the Marlboro Master, in 1999, and I liked it a lot . Ok for spotscarsMagny-Cours: Horrible, but flat and wide... Ok for organizers, bad for drivers  Hungaroring: Absolutely impossible. I drived on it with the Durango, one year ago... the track is narrow, no straight, full of bumps, facilities are inadequate... Do I have to say sometingh more? Donington Park: I saw it the last time in 1996, as a tourist ... I liked it... and I think that would be nice to race there...Facilities are something "humoristic"... It was similar of being in an airport... they're hangars, not garages Estoril: except for the absurd chicane, the track is nice and the region is beautiful. It's ok for sportscars, also becouse [in theory] it is always sunny [except for this year race ]Brno: I love it! Nace track, nice facilities, nice reagion, nice city, nice girls... why don't we make a whole championship there? Snetterton: A World Championship in Snetterton? It's like having it in Magione... Inadequate for sportscars, I think [but I raced in there only with TOCA Touring Cars, the videogame ]Barcelona: Ok for sportscars A-1 Ring: I like it, and I think it's perfect for sportscar: it's all straight, tourning, straight, turning... non succession of bens make it perfect for those not agile but powerful cars Dijon: They raced there last year... but I think it's too short for hosting a Championship like this one... Val de Vienne: Montecarlo has more straight.... Oschersleben: Like Val de Vienne Ok, these are my opinions over the circuits Tim proposed... Obviously my words aren't "the verb", and, expecially, usually organizers don't take care of drivers' opinions so it's very possible to race there
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Fulvio Cavicchi
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19 Jun 2003, 13:31 (Ref:636612)
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Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,622
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Re: Opinions from the cockpit
Quote:
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19 Jun 2003, 13:44 (Ref:636619)
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,215
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Thanks, Fulvio....The driver's perspective would be key to this whole selection process...of course, I would want courses that would be best for the racers, which in turn would be best for the fans...good racing action....
From reading your assessment, some circuits should go away from my list in a heartbeat...Val de Vienne, Oscherleben, Hungaroring, Jarama (which Javi said is being torn down in a few years anyway, but I scheduled only one there), Dijon, Snetterton, Magny-Cours...that's fine...consider it done... Various circuits you listed as OK....would they work, or are the minor problems just not worth the effort???? Note that Nurburgring is there already, so unless it is the long course, we're stuck with that one...If you would, jot the ones that you think would work for events, and if changes are needed, list them.... On the ones you like (Brno,A-1, Zandvoort, Estoril, Hockenheim long track, etc) maybe a schedule that would split the 4 that were announced by the ACO as I have split them, and working these into a rotation to give a good geographic spread of Tournament events each year, so that fans can go to at least one race that is not too far from where they live... As an example, Zandvoort would not be secheduled with Spa, A-1 would not be scheduled with Nurburgring, etc.... I could see a couple of sample seasons like these: 2005 Silverstone Spa Hockenheim (Long Course) Estoril 2006 Monza Nurburgring Zandvoort Barcelona 2007 Silverstone Spa A-1 or Brno Estoril 2008 Monza Nurburgring Donnington A-1 or Brno Finally...are there any courses I did not list that you would like on the list??? Share them....I'd like to add them.... Thanks again! |
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19 Jun 2003, 13:57 (Ref:636641)
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#12 | ||
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Veteran
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If trees a problem at Hockenheim long course, put A-1 in the Hockenheim slots during every Silverstone & Spa roatation as an every-other-year visit....
And since barcelona is listed as OK, but Brno is great, Put brno in all of the Barcelona slots... What about Valencia??? Your thoughts??/ |
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19 Jun 2003, 14:07 (Ref:636655)
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#13 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Just so this makes sense:
2005 Silverstone Spa A-1 Estoril 2006 Monza Nurburgring Zandvoort Brno 2007 Silverstone Spa A-1 Estoril or Valencia (no comments on that one?) 2008 Monza Nurburgring Donnington Brno And just run that rotation every four years.... Unless there are other circuits you would like to see that have not been listed at all.... |
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19 Jun 2003, 14:16 (Ref:636664)
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Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,622
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the long hockenheim course does not exist anymore and is now a part of the forest...
i wish i could have a talk to the guy who had that great idea |
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19 Jun 2003, 14:32 (Ref:636681)
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#15 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,215
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One other note:
Since the LM Tourney is four events, LM falls in the middle of the summer, and there are possible "across the pond" visitors to Sebring (March) and Petit LM (October) each year, my rotation would greatly benefit from an annual Iberian Event with Estoril and a Spanish course (Barcelona or valencia) rotating every other year....the race could be run in early Feb when the weather should be at least beeter than the other European venue options.... But I want to keep Brno in the mix and Zandvoort....a problem as this unfolds.... |
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19 Jun 2003, 18:12 (Ref:636865)
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#16 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Based on the above, here is what I would do if I were the ACO beyond 2004:
2005 Silverstone Spa Brno Estoril 2006 Monza Nurburgring Assen Barcelona 2007 Silverstone Spa A-1 Ring Estoril 2008 Monza Nurburgring Zandevoort Barcelona That way, each of the four originals are every other year... Estoril, Barcelona are every other year, and could be the early race in the calendar year with good weather a high possiblity to spread out the season dates... Four other good circuits Brno, A-1, Assen and Zandevoort are in the mix once every three years.... British, Dutch, German, Belgian, Italian, Central Europe and the Iberian peninsula fans get regular races -- at least one every other year.... Thus they are spread out geographically and large fan bases are accommodated with "homeland" tracks every other year, or a race that is not to far to travel to in the off-years.... I know that this all may be moot (although I cannot find anything that says the Tournament races will be those four same tracks every year), but at least it would be fair to more race fans in Europe than the "Let's run four at the same venues every year" idea Besides, there are a number of tracks that we in America would kill to have located here, but would not see sportscars at all on them...brno being the first example... That would be a terrible waste, and a shame for racing fans... |
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20 Jun 2003, 02:03 (Ref:637189)
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#17 | ||
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Rookie
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 98
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Just to cut the bull's head [as we say in Italy, it means "to avoid every possible doubts"...], I write here the best track in the world [my opinion only ^__*]
Italy: Imola Monza Mugello France: Le Mans Pau [but impossible racing there for sportscar] Paul Ricard (?) [I saw it only in photos and in tv] Spain: Barcellona Portugal: Estoril Germany: Hockenheim (the new layout is not as fast as the old, but at least it's wide] Norisring [with F3 or Touring Cars only ;-)] Lausitzring [the oval with a sportscar...crazy idea! ]Wunstorf [old airport.. I saw F3 racing on it on DSF ]Austria: Zeltweg Salzburgring [I LOVE IT! With F3 it's superb!] Great Britain: Silverstone Donington Brands Hatch [but, as I said, I think it's too narrow for sportscar] Holland: Zandvoort Assen Czech Republic: Brno Norwey: Mo-I-rana [I played it on STCC, the videogame...it's nice ]Croatia: Rjieka [the garages have never been completed in 30 years, but the bumpy layout it very nice ]USA: Elkart Lake Laguna Seca [how can I ever forget Alessandro Zanardi's mytical overtake over Bryan Herta?] Indianapolis [also the inside road course is ok... everything it's ok if it gives you the possibility to enter in THE CIRCUIT ]Watkins Glen Canada: Montreal Brazil: Rio de Janeiro Interlagos Australia: Adelaide Bathurst Philip Island Asia: Macao Sepang Sham Alam Japan: Suzuka Fuji Aida Ok, now I don't have in mind no other... For example I didn't wrote any track for Russia... I know there are three [and I will ove to try them] but they're surely inadequate for racing with a spostcar. Just to end... Tim, you will kill for having Bron in the States.. but you have Indianapolis, Daytona, Road America, Road Atlanta, Laguna Seca, Watkins Glen and Sears Point... Also here we will kill fore some of your venues
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Fulvio Cavicchi
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20 Jun 2003, 02:35 (Ref:637191)
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#18 | ||
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Racer
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 234
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Don't forget Mid-Ohio. :P I like the choice of tracks, both of you. If only this were to happen. Oh, the possibilities.
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"Sebring which - if Le Mans is the heart of our sport - is our sport's soul." -Leo Hindery
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20 Jun 2003, 07:04 (Ref:637283)
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#19 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 527
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Valencia track is very very good. Notice that many F1 teams testing there over the year. I haven´t gone yet, but I´ve been told the viewing areas are great for the public.
As for Jarama, is totally outdated track (altough I love it) Drivers tend to like the place (Beretta loved testing the dallara chrysler there in 2001). It will be sad to see it go... As for the schedule? Well, I respect your rotating opinions, but ensure there is an iberian race I can attend every year!!! |
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20 Jun 2003, 12:11 (Ref:637531)
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Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,500
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Would you suggest Sebring, PLM are rotated each?
Well I think Spa, Monza, Silverstone, Nurburgring should be permanent fixtures as they are the classics and the whole point of the LMES is to revive these classic races and regain interest in sportscar racing in Europe other than LM. By all means add another one or two events that can be rotated, but the classics need to be left well alone in order to grow the fanbase. For example the ALMS race at Silverstone in 2000 was a last minute addition, on a Saturday and yet attracted about 15,000 and was univerasally praised by fans and the press. The next year the race was moved to Donnington, and the opportunity to reveve the pre LM 'test' race in May at Silverstone was lost. If the race had continued it would have grown each year and would now be a huge race. |
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20 Jun 2003, 13:40 (Ref:637624)
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#21 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,215
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A Few Notes:
To Fulvio -- I almost put Salzburgring on the list, but didn't know if the facility could hold a potential F-1 size crowd that an LM Tourney event might attract.... Yes, we do have some good circuits in the U.S., but most are higher downforce courses with shorter straights....and I would put Watkins Glen, Laguna and Sears Point in that category...whereas the European circuits seem to provide venues better-suited to the sportscars On Indianapolis....I did a thread about a month ago called "A New LM Tourney Venue" that would revise the road course by taking in an existing roadway inside the oval to make the "LM Tourney" road course 4.687 miles and incorporate nearly all of the oval...and thus provide viewing access to all of the 310,000 seats....look it up and read my first post to introduce it to give you an idea of what I'm talking about... NOTE TO ALL: I know that we are assuming that these four courses for 2004 are to be permanent venues for the Tourney....and we're probably right... But I have been reading that statement released last week, and although it could be implied that this is the case, the statement does not say that at all..... It says (and I paraphrase this) that the "tradition of the 1000 km races will be revived with races at Monza, Spa, Silverstone and Nurburgring in 2004"....it implies it, and the four circuits will probably be the route they will go, but it does not say "the tradition of 1000 km races will be revived (beginning in 2004 and beyond)with races in..." or "Four (traditional, historic, or pick another adjective)1000 km classics will be revived as LM Tournament races.... Big differences in the wordage....I read the literal meaning of the ACO's statement to be that they are reviving the tradition itself of the 1000 km distance for the LM Tourney events, and four circuits noted for this tradition will be the venues for 2004...there is nothing about how long the agreements are, or that these will be four annual events...they are probably working on that with the circuits, thus the announcement in September.... FIA-SCC had plans to "revive 1000 km. races" for next season before this Tourney concept came about.... The ACO's statement, in my mind, leaves the door open for holding 1000 km races at other European venues as well in future years... They may have to sign agreements with the four circuits named to hold the races for 3 or 4 consecutive years to start out...but they could go to a rotation, and from a business and marketing standpoint, it is the best long-term approach to the Tournament... Dutch racing fans would pack Zandvoort or Assen for an LM Tourney event...that is a "Can't Miss" money machine for the ACO... Maybe they will keep the four original curcuits as "Tourney Qualifiers" for LM, and announce a couple of other "LMES non-qualifier" events in 2006 or 2007 to eventually build the European equivalent of the ALMS down the road.... The game plan could go many ways.... |
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20 Jun 2003, 14:15 (Ref:637661)
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Racer
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 283
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Valencia?????
Are you sure? F1 teams test there because it's even slower than Hungaroring!!!!!  So please, no Stop-go tracks (like the Budpest track, Valencia and Jerez) for the LM tournament Quote:
Last edited by 917Addicted; 20 Jun 2003 at 14:21. |
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20 Jun 2003, 14:53 (Ref:637693)
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
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I decided on Barcelona instead of Valencia as the other Iberian Peninsula stop (every other year), and I would NEVER have put Jerez on the list....no straights at all on that place (at least from what I have seen of the layout...
To 917Addicted: BTW...what are your thoughts on the list I proposed above (June 19) that begins "Based on the above"... Good, bad or indifferent, I'd be interested in your thoughts on this... |
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20 Jun 2003, 14:54 (Ref:637696)
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#24 | ||
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Veteran
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I don't know how they are going to handle Sebring and PLM, but the way I understood it, once the Tourney got underway, Sebring and PLM would be qualifiers...but maybe I'm wrong...
Please enlighten us if anyone knows.... |
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Finally... One American Open Wheel Series!
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20 Jun 2003, 15:11 (Ref:637714)
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Racer
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 283
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Tim, what I think has been mencioned before.
I don't think there will be any kind of rotation. More like having 3-4 fixed 1000Kms races. However, as a fan, I don't like the idea of a 1000km race at the actual Nurburgring. The 1st part (the one built last year for the f1 race) is just plain boring and silly (like f1). However, if it was possible to by-pass it, roll on the 1000Km
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