Are F1 drivers less adaptable these days?

[TimD]

I was going to post something about this in the Gilles/Schumacher thread, but then I thought perhaps it's worth a topic on its own.

I've noticed lately that there is a lot of statistical discussion over who are the best drivers in F1 today. The debate always goes around and around in circles, because we only have the drivers' Formula 1 performance to judge them by.

In times past, drivers (or their corporate masters) did not fight shy of getting into all kinds of other cars simply for the joy of racing. When they did that, people could easily gauge just how good they were, because they could see racecraft being adapted to suit each different class of car.

In the grand old days, a British GP meeting would have Stirling Moss and Mike Hawthorn competing in the Vanwall and Ferrari in the Formula 1 race, a Jaguar D and a Ferrari MM in the Sports Car race, and a pair of Jaguars in the Touring Car race.

Even as recently as the 1980s, we had the glorious sideshow of the BMW Procar race after practice for the GP, where younger drivers could indeed pitch themselves against the stars such as Lauda and Laffite. That's where we first saw just how good Nelson Piquet was going to be.

And Ayrton Senna da Silva first made a lot of people sit up and take notice when he gave Niki Lauda a hard time in a touring car race in a Mercedes Benz 190E

I mean, we only have Jenson Button's F3 experience to tell us anything about how rounded a driver he might be. For that reason, for many people, the jury is still out on him. I wonder if this is a good thing or not?

Anyone else remember just how dangerously quick Zonta looked when he was driving a Mercedes sports car? Perhaps if he was still doing a limited FIA GT programme on the non-GP weekends, his star would still be in the ascendant.

I know what you are all going to say - the sponsors wouldn't wear it, it's too much of a risk. Well, that's the way it is, but I can't help thinking it would be a lot more fun the way the old guys did it.

And let us not forget that B&H and Eddie Jordan were prepared to let Damon Hill go to Goodwood to race a Ferrari GTO sports car, while the season was still in full swing two years ago. I know a lot of people have a lot of fun denigrating Damon's ability these days, but ask yourselves this... how many other current F1 drivers have proved themselves able to handle a mid sixties Ferrari with no grip, no wings, narrow tyres and 360bhp....

Wouldn't you just love to see a sports car race supporting a GP where Mika in a Mercedes CLK-GT was pitted against Schumi in a Ferrari F50...

Anyone else out there see it this way?

[Dino IV]

This thread can turn out in two ways.
Either everyone agrees that they'd love to see F1 drivers competing in other cars as well, which is an easy one, 'coz everybody'd love to see those stars more in action.
Or it turns into one gigantesque discussion about who is or was a better racing driver. TGF or Moss, Hakkinen or Nuvolari, Alesi or Rosenmeyer, Clark or Prost ... and that's a though one. I know 'coz I am in the middle of one with a good friend of mine pitting il Diabolo and der Nebelmeister against Magic.

So I'll pick the easy lane for now: I'd love to see them in another series.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by TimD

Wouldn't you just love to see a sports car race supporting a GP where Mika in a Mercedes CLK-GT was pitted against Schumi in a Ferrari F50...

Now if someone could fix that, it would be incredible. My money would be on Mika though.


I'd certainly like to see them race in other series, but I don't think it's going to happen. It seems there is a set plan nowadays, and you basically go through Karts,FFord, possibly FRenault,F3,sometimes F3000 and F1 or CART.
If you haven't got enough cash to do F1, you do GT but not usually both at the same time, which is a shame in some ways.
There seem to be very few young people in Tin-tops nowadays too, it is almost becoming something you do when you've finished single-seater racing. Perhaps when Mika and Michael retire from F1 we'll see them head-to-head in the FIA GT championship, or at Le Mans.
Then of course, you could look at it the other way and say that a lot of drivers drove sports cars on the way up, such as Irvine,Wurz,Zonta etc.

[Marshal]

In reply to the actual question from Tim, i'd say no, I think the drivers are just as adaptable today as they have evr been, its just we get no opportunity to see that. I think the main reason is Money, so much cash is tied up in F1 that the precious stars aren't allowed to do anything else, and have no real motivationfor doing so.

I guess some people might say that in days of yore, the drivers drove for the love, but I'm sure if Moss had been offered twice as much money to race only F1, he'd have taken it.

The sad aspect fir me is that some drivers in F1 ae probably missing out on they're best discipline. If you look at people like Surtees and McLaren, they were both excellent F1 racers, but arguably at there best in bgi can-Am type sportscars.

Finally in an attempt to take this discussion in a different direction, which F1 drivers of the modern era would you like to have seen in which series. I always thought that Prost in a Porsche 956 would have been brilliant, but it never happened.

[Liz]

I think it's a question of specialising. These days everyone is much more narrow than we used to be; a good generatlist is hard to find in any field, as most fields are so fiendishly complex these days and a person has only so much time to master his own field (or style of racing) and not for any others. If you have spent 15 years in the field of Commercial Underwriting, for example, and you decide you'd like to get into a job as a law clerk, you are so far behind and need so much training to get up to speed that you probably can't afford either the time or the pay cut.

Look at how many people are sure that Juan Pablo won't be able to master F1 cars after having spent two years in CART! And he is only 24 years old. Not to mention how many people are sure Zonta is a washout because after two years in a terrible car on a very political team, he has not won the WDC?

I think it's a matter of specialisation and not a matter of desire. If the guys had the time to race in any other series, I can believe that most of they would love to.

Remember that Damon also raced motorcycles at Goodwood (not successfully, but he was out there anyway.) I'd like to see some of the current field on bikes. That would show who had the most, um, fortitude!

[angst]

I agree with Tim that the narrowing of different classes of racing from the F1 drivers has made it particularly difficult to guage their talents. Especially when one considers the 'one-driving-style-fits-all' state of F1 at the moment. Bring on the sportscars(pity it won't happen, that would be awesome)

[Nuvolari]

I think that's right: this is the age of specialization (how hard is it to find a doctor who's a skilled general practioner these days?)

Still, I believe today's drivers remain fairly adaptable. Driving's in the genes.

It would be amusing to put Mika and Michael in a couple of Winston Cup cars to race with the NASCAR boys at Daytona.

It might be far more amusing to put Dale Earnhart and Jeff Gordon in a McLaren and a Ferrari at Spa!

[TimD]

Originally posted by Nuvolari

It might be far more amusing to put Dale Earnhart and Jeff Gordon in a McLaren and a Ferrari at Spa!

Amusing? Nuvolari, that would be terrifying!

[TimD]

Actually, after posting that, I just remembered the British involvement with the IROC series in the late eighties.

Derek Bell found himself splatted into a wall in one of the biggest accidents of his career. I've loaned the video to someone, so I forget who it was who helped him into the spin. Johnny Rutherford, I think.

Martin Brundle tried the IROC too, and recounts the advice Dale Earnhardt gave him when he asked about driving technique in the forthcoming race.

Without batting an eye, Earnhardt responded "Remember you have kids..."

[SL]

There was one event that did pit a lot of F1 drivers against the rest and that was the charity kart event at Bercy (Paris). True to form Senna won when he entered, Schue also won, the most notable was the form shown by the so called lesser drivers. I think the event is still held although the number of F1 drivers gets less every year.

Normally around Xmas time on Eurosport.


However I do agree, and would love to see the current crop let loose in sports, saloons or historics. Maybe sling in a few F3000 hot shots and a few retiree's. Perhaps a rally driver or two, Pete Hardman in an Aston, Grant Williams in an old Jag..........and so on. I'd buy a ticket.

Perhaps another thread, name your line up, ?

SL

[freud]

Jacques Villeneuve, Mika Hakkinen, Michael Schumacher and Juan Pablo Montoya.....racing hard against each other at Spa all driving Bright Red Ferrari sports cars(any models) !!! That's the ultimate fun for me.

[Liz]

TGF, HHF and TGFLB in a BMW LMP 900 at Le Mans (as co-drivers) - what do you think about that?

Then put up against them Gil de Ferran, Helio Castro-Neves and Cristiano da Matta in an Audi R8R; Yvan Muller, Jan Magnussen and Mark Martin in a Panoz; and Dindo Capello, Cranky Mika and Jos Verstappen in a Courage!!!

Throw them all out there for 24 hours and who do you think would come in first?

[SL]

First in the race or first in the fight for the wheel.

The Audi would win regardless I'm sure, maybe omit the Audi and add a F333P. Then we have a race...

SL

[EERO]

I actually think Tim has raised an interesting question (its one one I think about often). The issue is specialization, as Liz said.
I for one, would very much like to see F1 drivers take on other series, and I really believe it would give us all a much better sense of their relative talents.

In the late sixties and seventies, many GP drivers had regular drives in F2; can you imagine TGF doing a one-off drive for Astromega in F3000, today's equivalent?

Jody Scheckter opened up the eyes of the world with a brilliant debut in 1972 in the USGP-the following December he won the Springbock in a 2 Litre March Sportscar, in 73 he won the US F5000 championship, competed in the Can-Am in a Porsche 917, and nearly ended his career at the start of the British GP.

Wouldn't it be great to see Junquiera and Sato testing themselves against Hakkinen and Schumacher?
Wouldn't Alesi seem like a different man if despite the disaster of his F1 season, he were still trouncing everyone in Sportscars?

Tim, I vote yes.

[Valve Bounce]

There are more F1 races on the callendar now, more testing to be done, more PR requirements, and quite honestly, little time left for the families. I just don't think that, with all the commitments of an F1 driver these days, there is room left for anything else. They are now talking about a ban on F1 activities in August just so the families can have some time with the drivers. Certainly F1 drivers have greater fitness now, and I think they have developed their skills even more, I think they are more evenly matched in ablilty, with only the cars making much of the difference. But, there is little time to muck around with serious sports car racing as well, let alone saloon cars, and F2 cars and what ever else they used to do.

[TimD]

Valve Bounce, that raises another bugbear I have with current F1.

Having been to two Silverstone test sessions this year, I came away with the thought "they're nearly all here - why the heck can't they line up and call it a race".

In the old days, testing was a quick blast round Brands in February to make sure everything was screwed together properly, and then a couple of non-championship F1 races to bed everything in before the championship qualifying season started.

While there are 17 points scoring races now, there were as many - if not more - F1 races a team could enter through the course of the year.

In Britain alone, for example, you would expect to see the current F1 teams at the Silverstone International Trophy, the Aintree 200, the Goodwood Lavant Cup and the Brands Hatch Race of Champions. It was a similar situation in France, Italy and Germany. After the F1 season was over, they would all hare down to Australia to do the Tasman series of another five races during January and February.

Just think - suppose we had an International Trophy at Silverstone next year - non championship of course. The teams are already committed to spending a few days at the circuit, the test driver is looking for some competition experience....

Could be a good race. And it frees up the number one and two drivers to take on a sports car at another circuit.

By my way of thinking, anyway...!

[Liz]

Television, I suspect, has something to do with why we don't see the guys in sports cars and other series. The current generation of race promoters seem to think that if it isn't on television, it isn't really happening. And why would a sponsor want his property to be racing if millions of people aren't going to see him?

As far as testing goes, I go back to specialization - the cars are a lot more complicated these days and a lot less reliable. I used to be able to fix my road car myself, or at least unscrew the bit that was not working and carry it to the shop to be rebuilt (I had a Studebaker for a "fixer upper" and they were not making parts for them by that time.) Now even the garage can't tell you what's wrong with the car half the time. And the F1 cars are a lot more complex.

Perhaps the answer is to put everybody back in the big flat turbo driven cars with the slick tires and no electronic bits at all and make them drive? Who knows, they mightt get to like it so much that they would want to drive in other races?